10/20 limit button/bb war

XXsooted · #1 09-10-2007, 05:52 PM

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
9 players
Converter

I don't know anything about villian

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
6 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Is 3bet okay? Typical capping range here? Is it always A2 or A3 + some kind of high? I 3bet because I assumed a big blind would 3bet an A2 or A3 hand against the button preflop, but I could be way off about that.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Probably way spewy against an unknown, I know...

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Fold low flush getting 13.25 to 1? Seems like when he 3bets turn he has to have a higher flush, but I guess I'm too used to holdem where people's ranges are really wide in blind battles

Results:
Final pot: 14.25BB

TheCount212 · #2 09-10-2007, 06:15 PM

This seems like an awful lot of aggression for someone holding a 6 high flush and no guaranteed low on board. The question isn't really whether you should fold the river. It's why you 3 bet the flop and raised the turn when (a) you don't have the nuts and (b) villain hasn't missed a single opportunity to bet.

zizazziza · #3 09-10-2007, 06:34 PM

umm.. ignore what he said. You have a OESD + many outs to what could be the best hand. He is going to be this aggressive on the flop with set or maybe even 2pr.
I think that flop is fine since his c/r range is so large.
When the turn hits you, I think you HAVE to raise. However, when he 3b you, you have to realize that this is your chance to fold. If he has the nut flush (or a higher one) as he is repping you should fold, but he could have set and its unknown so I would like to know whats going on since im calling 2bb to win 5.5bb I would call.
The river sucks b/c you are ALMOST never good. However
its 13:1 on your money and I have to call and find out what hes calling you with pf.
Also, flop betting could be done with A23 where you have him in pretty good shape here with your FD.

TheCount212 · #4 09-10-2007, 06:52 PM

I thought that baby flushes weren't something to get terribly excited about..
what do you think the chances are that villain here is a maniac who's jamming with an uncounterfeitable low draw and gambling it up while praying for the low to hit the river?

zizazziza · #5 09-10-2007, 06:59 PM

im saying the turn is your chance to fold. but remember this is a BSB hand and I think you have to widen his range when he c/r you on the flop.

TheCount212 · #6 09-10-2007, 07:09 PM

i totally agree with you that the turn fold is a good idea.

Buzz · #7 09-10-2007, 10:03 PM

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is not a particularly good starting hand in a nine handed game. It's not absolutely horrid, but it's not good either.

You raise with it and get heads-up. Usually when that happens in a nine-handed game, you end up heads-up against the best hand in eight that was dealt to your opponents. As it turns out, this time you end up heads-up against the big blind.

Your hand looks better for one-on-one play against a random hand than for multi-opponent play, but maybe not against the only hand out of eight that calls you, even if it is the big blind.

But for one-on-one play, your hand lacks high card strength (except for the ace), and the pair of sixes stinks. And if you're up against ace-deuce, so does the ace-trey. And if you're up against higher hearts, so does the baby flush draw.

The big blind doesn't necessarily have much of a hand to defend, but with everyone else out of the hand, BB's hand might actually be something this time. Hard to say.

But you do like the flop. This is a nice, but not perfect flop for you. BB checks and you bet. Fine.

But then BB says "I have something this time." (He does that by check-raising). He could be bluffing with the check-raise. The way I call an opponent's bluff, when I'm not sure if he's bluffing or not, is I call.

I don't get the raise.

But although I don't get it, I don't think it's terrible.

And then BB re-raises. Now he's either (1) bluffing, (2) over-valuing his hand, or (3) he really does have something.

Next either (1) you over-value your own hand, and/or (2) think you can overpower BB, and/or (3) without knowing BB you somehow really have become convinced he is bluffing.

That impresses me as maniacal.

Next the turn enables a flush and BB bets right into you. BB bets as though he's afraid if he checks you won't bet for him. BB bets as though he has the stone cold nuts and is unwilling to risk another check-raise.

And amazingly, you don't believe him. If I didn't believe him, I'd call his possible bluff.

Instead you raise! That is definitely maniacal.

I'll give you this much: you're fearless.

I imagine you got your ass kicked here.

Buzz

XXsooted · #8 09-11-2007, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Usually when that happens in a nine-handed game, you end up heads-up against the best hand in eight that was dealt to your opponents. As it turns out, this time you end up heads-up against the big blind

[/ QUOTE ]

It was folded to me on the button.

[ QUOTE ]
A,6,6,3 is not a particularly good starting hand in a nine handed game. It's not absolutely horrid, but it's not good either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the blinds fold enough for it to be profitable to play here (assuming you play better postflop than me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

[ QUOTE ]
He could be bluffing with the check-raise. The way I call an opponent's bluff, when I'm not sure if he's bluffing or not, is I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was value-raising. I thought his range would be pretty wide since he was in the big blind. I thought a big part of his range included a worse low. I'm very new to bilnd battles in this game, so I know I could be way off here.

[ QUOTE ]
Next either (1) you over-value your own hand, and/or (2) think you can overpower BB, and/or (3) without knowing BB you somehow really have become convinced he is bluffing.

That impresses me as maniacal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you're talking about here. I think you meant to refer to the turn raise. And ya, I agree that the turn raise was bad since I can't really fold to a 3-bet with my lo draw.

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine you got your ass kicked here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol ya how'd you guess? He obv had nut flush. What surprised me was that he had the A3 to go along with it. I had assumed he'd 3-bet preflop with this hand. Just to make sure, most players in the big blind would 3-bet any A2, right?

Buzz · #9 09-11-2007, 07:44 AM

XXsooted - Think a bit about two things:

Thing 1- You don't seem to be crediting BB with better cards on the basis of all other opponents folding. Let me put it this way: If three of these tight seeming opponents entered the action, do you think they would have good cards? (maybe the other three aces between the three of them)? Thus when they don't enter the action, what does that mean?

Evidently nobody else had a hand worth playing. Doesn't that seem to enrich the deck in favor of one (or both) of the blinds having been dealt good cards?

So you raise, knocking out Small Blind and get one on one with Big Blind. Fine. That seems very reasonable to me.

But then once you get one-on-one, you need to reaalize you very well might be up against the pick of the litter. In other words, since everybody else has folded, Big Blind is probably more likely to be holding an ace or two. And in that case, you really don't have a great one-on-one hand.

But It's Big Blind, so it's hard to tell on the basis of the first round action.

Thing 2- More importantly, it does not seem to me that you are redefining BB's range on the basis of his play after the flop.

After the flop BB check-raises! Why do you think he did that? What does that mean about his range? Does he have the same range to do that as to defend his big blind? Or if he is not bluffing, does the check-raise redefine his range?

[ QUOTE ]
It was folded to me on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. Do you think maybe they folded poor starting cards without aces? There are three missing aces, the ace of hearts is critical, you don't have it, and since everybody but BB has folded, what does that possibly leave for BB?

[ QUOTE ]
I think the blinds fold enough for it to be profitable to play here

[/ QUOTE ]I agree. Your late position raise, hoping to steal the blinds seems very reasonable. And if they don't fold, you have a playable hand and position.

But then when BB doesn't fold to your raise, that's information for you to use - admittedly not much info, but some. I don't think you used that information.

(Part of the info is that since everybody else has folded the probability BB has an ace or two is increased). But at this point, although you should suspect BB probably has at least one ace, you should not expect BB necessarily holds the ace of hearts. P is a bit higher than random.

You do have position and you do catch what seems to be a nice flop for you, and when Big Blind checks, you bet. Very reasonable.

Next BB check-raises! That's a lot of information for you. But again, you don't seem to use that information. Instead you make it three bets. How does making it three bets use the information?

(Part of the info when BB check-raises this flop, is the probability BB specifically has the ace of hearts is increased). P becomes more than a bit higher than random.
[ QUOTE ]
I was value-raising. I thought his range would be pretty wide since he was in the big blind. I thought a big part of his range included a worse low.

[/ QUOTE ]He's in the big blind, but he may be the only one at the table who has a bona-fide playable hand.

You are right that BB has a wide range - before the flop. After the flop, and the check-raise, are you able to narrow BB's range?

[ QUOTE ]
I had assumed he'd 3-bet preflop with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Not necessarily. [ QUOTE ]
Just to make sure, most players in the big blind would 3-bet any A2, right?

[/ QUOTE ]Three-betting is highly opponent dependent. Some would; others wouldn't. I might or might not.

(Rightly or wrongly I defend more often than not, but mainly to deter future attacks). However, if I decided to defend my big blind whether I would call or re-raise would depend more on how I felt about the opponent who was attacking than on my own cards.

Buzz

XXsooted · #10 09-11-2007, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't seem to be crediting BB with better cards on the basis of all other opponents folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, like you said above that wouldn't really make sense. I discredited on the assumption that people will defend a wide range when they have to call one more bet in the big blind against a button raiser, whom they assume has a wide raising range.

Thanks for the in-depth reply Buzz. I think my main problem was eliminating A2 and A3 from his range because of his preflop call, leading me to believe I had hit a monster flop. I've only played 2100 hands of om/8 so far, and so few hands get folded around to the button that I have very little experience in these situations. Thanks again.