Some advice please

[bigmonkey]

Let us say that at the moment I am playing the role of the thief. I have some property of theirs which I haven't paid for. But it's a broken exercise bike! It's not worth anything! I suppose technically you can steal things that aren't worth anything, but that makes you a thief to the lowest degree really.

And I'm not making this hard for them at all. She hasn't replied to me for several days. She just said they were coming at some time on the weekend. Am I expected to be in at all times of the weekend? That is quite unreasonable. All I want is some notice and I will go out of my way to make sure they get it back.

Plus I'm not sure why I am to be labelled a scumbag here. I basically made this thread to get people's opinions on what the morally right thing to do was. It's not like I can't make my own decisions or don't know what is right/wrong, but I thought this one was a borderline issue that could go either way and I'd never encountered before. I've asked a lot of people outside this thread what they would do and their responses have mostly been "[censored] her". Most of the replies at the start of this thread stated that I should let her come and collect it. If you thought otherwise you should've spoken up earlier.

[Jim14Qc]

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bigmonkey, i dont think ive called anyone on this board one before so dont take this lightly. you are one serious douche.

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The thing is you're not in a very good position to comment...

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Of course he is. Because you made a thread about it soliciting comments. Idiot.

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Yes because the subject of this thread was "Hello, I need degenerate gamblers who mostly cannot run their own lives to consider a very small fraction of time in a very small fraction of my life and tell me whether I am a douche or not, since your judgment will be more accurate based on this insignificant scrap of information than mine and everybody I know based on infinitely more information."

Except...it wasn't. You are welcome to your opinion and to tell me what it is, but just so you know, your opinion is worth absolutely nothing. Not especially because you are an idiot, but because you are badly informed. The uninformed opinion of anybody isn't worth considering.

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You've now officially proven bwana devil right.

Seriously, wtf?

[bwana devil]

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Let us say that at the moment I am playing the role of the thief. I have some property of theirs which I haven't paid for. But it's a broken exercise bike! It's not worth anything! I suppose technically you can steal things that aren't worth anything, but that makes you a thief to the lowest degree really.

And I'm not making this hard for them at all. She hasn't replied to me for several days. She just said they were coming at some time on the weekend. Am I expected to be in at all times of the weekend? That is quite unreasonable. All I want is some notice and I will go out of my way to make sure they get it back.

Plus I'm not sure why I am to be labelled a scumbag here. I basically made this thread to get people's opinions on what the morally right thing to do was. It's not like I can't make my own decisions or don't know what is right/wrong, but I thought this one was a borderline issue that could go either way and I'd never encountered before. I've asked a lot of people outside this thread what they would do and their responses have mostly been "[censored] her". Most of the replies at the start of this thread stated that I should let her come and collect it. If you thought otherwise you should've spoken up earlier.

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you say the bike is broken and worthless yet it still must hold some value to the woman since she is trying to get it back from you. if you took something you havent paid for and the person wants it back im not sure what else you can call it.

your definition of "not making it hard" involves you controlling how, when and where they will pick up the bike. if what you outline isnt met, youre locking yourself in your room.

you asked for advice. some people told you to bring it back. others told you to keep it and screw the girl over. you chose to hear what you wanted to justify your actions.

my main problem is how unreasonable youre being about getting the bike back to her. if you actually cared youd be more accommodating and compromising.

it seems youve set it up so any reasonable person would rather do without the $25 than drag this out. she expected to sell a bike for a price. she didnt think she'd additionally have to travel across town and give operating instructions. you can sleep well at night knowing you took "the moral high ground" by offering the woman her bike back but she just didnt care enough to come get it.

[bigmonkey]

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you say the bike is broken and worthless yet it still must hold some value to the woman since she is trying to get it back from you. if you took something you havent paid for and the person wants it back im not sure what else you can call it.

your definition of "not making hard" involves you controlling how, when and where they will pick up the bike. if what you outline isnt met, youre locking yourself in your room.

you asked for advice. some people told you to bring it back. others told you to keep it and screw the girl over. you chose to hear what you wanted to justify your actions.

my main problem is how unreasonable youre being about getting the bike back to her. if you actually cared youd be more accommodating and compromising.

it seems youve set it up so any reasonable person would rather do without the $25 than drag this out. she expected to sell a bike for a price. she didnt think she'd additionally have to travel across town and give operating instructions. you can sleep well at night knowing you took "the moral high ground" by offering the woman her bike back but she just didnt care enough to come get it.

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Ok I can't be bothered to break this into quotes, so will just answer them in order.

I'm not totally sure if the bike is worth something to her. She must think it's either broken or works, it's not like Schroedinger's Cat. Does she actually want a broken bike or not? Or does she just want a bike that is, let's say 80% likely to be broken and 20% likely to work (or some other combination)?

In what sense am I making it hard for them to get? They can come and get it at ANY TIME on ANY WEEKEND, for the next 10 MONTHS, possibly longer, I'm not sure. They could come and get it on a weekday too, except I am out most of the day, usually out at about 9 and not back until 7. All I require is for them to choose a suitable time and tell me in advance. Even one day in advance is acceptable. How am I making this hard? Why can't they just be more organised and helpful?

As for the "locking-my-door" part, remember this whole scenario as far as I am concerned is just a matter of helping her or not helping her, and isn't worth much for me, apart from just having done the right thing. None of this is worth exposing my property to two complete strangers. I just don't want them turning up with no notice at all. I can't see how asking for a bit of notice is unreasonable?

Towards the beginning of this thread there was definitely more consensus towards not paying for it and offering her the choice to come and get it. If I wanted to just be as selfish as possible I would never have made this thread. This was just one of those situations where I felt the morally right thing could hurt somebody unnecessarily. So I feel guilty about how my actions have affected her, without regretting those actions. The overwhelming consensus (not just on this thread, but with other people I have discussed it with), is that I have done the rational thing. Now that I have already acted, people who were probably lurking earlier on have come out to condemn me. But I'm not trying to pass on responsibility to you and others, as if you not speaking earlier made me do the wrong thing. I think I have done the right thing. I was unsure before, but now I have come to realise that I have done the right thing.

I haven't set anything up so that she is rationally obliged to just give up on the bike. These conditions are just the way it is. I could sympathise with your point if the bike actually worked. Perhaps in another possible world, with a working bike and a "more evil" version of myself, I may have got the bike home and realised I could get it for free by cancelling the payment and telling her it was broken, and expect that she wouldn't come to get it because it just wasn't worth it. But the fact is the bike doesn't work. I haven't benefited from any of this. It might be that she suspected I was some immoral person pulling that scam and tried to call my bluff by saying she would come and get it, and since then I've sent two e-mails back asking to know when she is coming, and she is forced to admit I am telling the truth (or a master bluffer).

At the moment I am 70% certain that she has just decided to give it up and won't respond to my e-mails. I am 20% certain that she has just not been online in several days and might re-organise for next weekend. And I am 10% certain they will turn up at some time tomorrow without notice and I won't let them in, which will be reasonable.

Also...I think it could be argued from another perspective that if anything I have done her a favour. She hasn't lost anything. As far as she was concerned the exercise bike was junk, even if it did work. In fact I may have unwittingly done a job for free that she would have paid someone else to do, and I nearly paid her for that opportunity. Her brother told me he'd bought the bike for his girlfriend first, who hadn't used it so gave it to his sister (her), who hadn't used it either. "£25" has been thrown a lot around this thread, but remember that that was just my value (minus travel expenses) for a working exercise bike. This is not how much she thinks it's worth. I suspect her value for it is £0 plus the potential to sell.

So for all we know, she might actually prefer to have it off her property and paid nothing for it. But the £25 figure I suspect is way off. Even if she believes it still works right now, I suspect she doesn't value it more than £5. She almost certainly values it less than it would cost for me to get it back to her in a taxi. I hadn't even thought of that point earlier. I was despairing somewhat that she had been screwed over by my actions (nice use of the passive voice here- I mean that I screwed her over). But my best explanation now is that she probably just does not care about it.

I know you (and others like you who I am treating as one) probably are sceptical of this next claim. But I am quite a moral person. I am probably the most moral person I know to be completely honest. People are rationally obliged to act selfishly, and morally obliged to act morally. But even if I were purely a moral agent, I think the moral decision would be to not take this bike back. Just to consider the utility of all people concerned, if I were to take it back I would be doing more damage to more people than I would were I to not take it back.

[MiloMinderbinder]

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I'm not totally sure if the bike is worth something to her. She must think it's either broken or works, it's not like Schroedinger's Cat. Does she actually want a broken bike or not? Or does she just want a bike that is, let's say 80% likely to be broken and 20% likely to work (or some other combination)?

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Are you really this dense???

Who cares if you think its broken, you took it from her as is promising to pay her and you didn't pay. It's her [censored] bike, you piece of [censored], no matter how much value YOU want to place on it.

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At the moment I am 70% certain that she has just decided to give it up and won't respond to my e-mails.

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What is your point here? That you've been such an [censored] through this whole episode that she finally wrote off getting either her just payment or property back? Congratulations, douche bag.

[bigmonkey]

To the post above this one: I'm not sure what you are referring to. It's perfectly consistent that you posted in the wrong thread or something, but then why would you quote me?

Now I look closer, I find you have posted frequently throughout this thread, from start to finish. That explains why there were so many negative responses: they were mostly from one person.

I'm fairly certain you are in the minority. You should re-calibrate your intuitions. Most of your responses are really biased to the point where I can't really tell what your motives are in making them. You seem really convinced that this isn't even borderline, but you don't have any good arguments to actually justify your position. The way you responded to my last post is really strange. It's as if you are incapable of understanding sentences, or you are just interpreting sentences as meaning something completely different, or are simply not reading them, I am not sure which.

Why should I take it back? What principle of morality are you appealing to? That I should go out of my way to help people who are acting against my interests? Your viewpoint just makes no sense whatsoever.

[chopsticks]

During reading her replies I've been imagining shes Micah Moore and I'm feeling bad for her. At the moment you are a thief and you should definitely be the one who transports the broken bike from your place to theirs. If it's broken ask the money you had to pay to bring it back. And roflz @ you thinking theyre going to stab you for £25, this is real world not a movie.

You had a a cab waiting and couldn't try if it works. How is this possible? It takes a minute to hop on and do a little test drive, how much does a cab charge for it? You didn't play your cards correctly and it resulted as a bad showdown.

[bigmonkey]

Yeah, not testing it there could have been a mistake. (OK it was a mistake), but then my subjective probability for it not working was low. There didn't seem like much evidence to favour considering it might be broken. And I don't think I failed to check it worked because I knew I could cancel the payment afterwards: that only really occurred to me when I found it was broken. So, had I already paid her for this I would have been screwed. Lesson learned then.

I don't get the reference to Micah Moore. She is a pornstar right? Are you only sympathising with her because she sounds fit? I haven't met her myself but I'm guessing that owning an exercise bike for like a year and not using it indicates that she is not fit.

Also, she still hasn't replied to me. If she hasn't replied by next weekend I will probably send her another e-mail saying that I am going to get rid of it (although I haven't worked out how yet), unless she replies soon.

[wtfsvi]

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Also...I think it could be argued from another perspective that if anything I have done her a favour. She hasn't lost anything. As far as she was concerned the exercise bike was junk, even if it did work. In fact I may have unwittingly done a job for free that she would have paid someone else to do, and I nearly paid her for that opportunity. Her brother told me he'd bought the bike for his girlfriend first, who hadn't used it so gave it to his sister (her), who hadn't used it either. "£25" has been thrown a lot around this thread, but remember that that was just my value (minus travel expenses) for a working exercise bike. This is not how much she thinks it's worth. I suspect her value for it is £0 plus the potential to sell.

So for all we know, she might actually prefer to have it off her property and paid nothing for it. But the £25 figure I suspect is way off. Even if she believes it still works right now, I suspect she doesn't value it more than £5. She almost certainly values it less than it would cost for me to get it back to her in a taxi. I hadn't even thought of that point earlier. I was despairing somewhat that she had been screwed over by my actions (nice use of the passive voice here- I mean that I screwed her over). But my best explanation now is that she probably just does not care about it.

[/ QUOTE ] You have some crazy self rigtiousness going on here. For all you know she might prefer to have it off her property? Well, if you ask her if she wants you to bring it back and she says no, you are probably right.