Does the flop ever go back?

[pokerdoug1973]

I am a Floor Supervisor and there has always been argument about a particular mistake occasionally made by a dealer that causes me much grief.
In an action game, low limits (3-6 to 8-16) I am called to the table and in formed that there are the usual 8 players for a cap pre flop, and the dealer burns and brings the flop only to hear a player say "I did not call the last bet". They have 3 of the 4 bets out, what is the correct call?
In situation #2 I am called to the table and the dealer informs me that she did not notice the button raised and brings the flop. Visual shows a small pot, seats 4,5,6 have cards as well as the button (seat 1) and there are 2 bets in front of seat 1. The raise was not announced, but I assume it was noticed by at least 2 players because neither the small or large blind have cards. (I know the dealer made a huge mistake when she pulled in the large blinds chips and cards and still did not see the raise.) Whats the call here?
Also, is there a standard rule used in Las Vegas or California card rooms regarding the dealer bringing the flop before action is complete. Does it never go back and the players hands are always killed, even if the dealer fails to announce raises? Or in certain cases is the amount that the player is short considered, and they sometimes be allowed to complete their bet even after seeing the flop?
Mostly I am looking for a determining line so I can make sure all the floors in my poker room make the same decision, each time it needs to made.

[RR]

It is very difficult to bring the flop early. The dealer should be bringing in the bets before putting out the flop, this gives the players a lot of time to speak up that they haven't acted. I have heard of a rule that the flop can't be brought back, but I don't think it is standard.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
"I did not call the last bet". They have 3 of the 4 bets out, what is the correct call?

[/ QUOTE ]

This very well may depend on the players position. Is this player the first player who should have acted on the last raise? If so you may rule the hand dead for the player not protecting his action. On the other hand if he was the last player to act on the raise and promptly objected bring back the flop.

One problem with the capped betting is that for some reason most limit players seem to think the word cap means throw out more chips now without waiting for your turn to act. I ask the players to act in turn and they actually argue with me that since it is capped it doesn't matter.

[ QUOTE ]
I am called to the table and the dealer informs me that she did not notice the button raised and brings the flop. Visual shows a small pot, seats 4,5,6 have cards as well as the button (seat 1) and there are 2 bets in front of seat 1. The raise was not announced, but I assume it was noticed by at least 2 players because neither the small or large blind have cards. (I know the dealer made a huge mistake when she pulled in the large blinds chips and cards and still did not see the raise.) Whats the call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume there is no dispute that the button raised. As such flop comes back, players complete the betting round and the flop is shuffled back in to the stub, no burn just put up a flop (leave the original burn out of the reshuffle).

[ QUOTE ]
Or in certain cases is the amount that the player is short considered, and they sometimes be allowed to complete their bet even after seeing the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No player ever gets to complete the action after seeing the flop. Either the flop comes back or the hand is dead, but you never get to act after seeing the cards that come out.

[pfapfap]

Bless your heart, I wish some of our floor would come on here and work to get consistent rulings. I work as a dealer, and I can offer this:

Train your dealers to bring in bets BEFORE the flop. This gives everybody maximum chance to object, and it gives the dealer one more look at every bet to make sure it's ok. On later streets, deal the card and then bring in bets. This helps direct the action and also is an immediate reminder how many are in the hand, which helps prevent this sort of thing.

As to the flop, psandman has it right. The flop is brought back and reshuffled if there are four to the flop, as well. In no way does this kill the action on the hand. The three cards on the second flop are just as random as the first three. Superstitious nits don't like this, which is why your dealers need to be trained to pay attention and do things in a way that prevent errors.