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  #11  
Old 10-12-2006, 07:34 PM
DrModern DrModern is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

Read my guide for n00bs on flop continuation bets. It's on the main page right now, I believe.
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:11 PM
RakeBackDepot RakeBackDepot is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

If rags are spread out like 2 5 9- bet. If rags are consecutive like 567- check. If your opponents are aggressive- check. If they are passive- bet. If your table image sucks- check, if good- bet.
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2006, 11:09 PM
Nfinity Nfinity is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

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Betting for value with Ace high against multiple opponents? How likely is it that everyone missed the flop and your Ace high is still good?

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Exactly! I read a few of the posts you linked to and I agree that if you are in late position and get bet in to, you should raise. But if you are first to act with two overcards...ahh that is something else.

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Let's try this from the workbook angle...

Post a hand in which you yourself think it would be correct to raise a bet on the flop with just 2 OC's, no straight, flush, or backdoor draws. We'll critique it, and eventually through this process we'll come up with an answer.

Be as specific as possible.(ie Reads, position, an actual board would all be nice.)
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  #14  
Old 10-13-2006, 02:18 AM
shimoda shimoda is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

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[ QUOTE ]
Betting for value with Ace high against multiple opponents? How likely is it that everyone missed the flop and your Ace high is still good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! I read a few of the posts you linked to and I agree that if you are in late position and get bet in to, you should raise. But if you are first to act with two overcards...ahh that is something else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's try this from the workbook angle...

Post a hand in which you yourself think it would be correct to raise a bet on the flop with just 2 OC's, no straight, flush, or backdoor draws. We'll critique it, and eventually through this process we'll come up with an answer.

Be as specific as possible.(ie Reads, position, an actual board would all be nice.)

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I'll bite (as fishes are prone to).

Nano table. Loose opponents PF% 30-50

Hero A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button 2 limpers, bet, call, call, fold, fold, hero raises, blinds folds betters call. 9,5 SB
3 callers + hero

Flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
First caller bets, call, call, hero raises.

OK, how do I think? First better must have something, he is the key. The two others are tagging along. He can have a big pair AA-TT but not likely since he didn't cap it preflop. Most likely he has big Broadways like hero or small pair. If he has big broadway ours is most likely as good or better than his. If he has a small pair there is a risk that he will connect with the board. I will try to punish him for that by raising. If he comes back at me with a reraise I'm screwed and will fold. If not I'll take a free card on turn if offered and I don't connect with the board.
Standard play, I know, but this is how I think.

Feel free to tear it apart. I love to learn.
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  #15  
Old 10-13-2006, 03:11 AM
Nfinity Nfinity is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

[ QUOTE ]
Nano table. Loose opponents PF% 30-50

Hero A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button 2 limpers, bet, call, call, fold, fold, hero raises, blinds folds betters call. 9,5 SB
3 callers + hero

Flop 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
First caller bets, call, call, hero raises.


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OK, how do I think? First better must have something, he is the key. The two others are tagging along

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Your first error in your line of thinking is merely focusing on the bettor and completely disregarding the 2 callers in between. Like if they were playing with Uno cards they would just as delighted to peel. While it might often seem the case with these loose passive players, in reality it's not. They each individually have "something", and their individual "somethings" weaken the strength of your nothing.

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Most likely he has big Broadways like hero or small pair. If he has big broadway ours is most likely as good or better than his.

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What does raising accomplish if this is the case?

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If he has a small pair there is a risk that he will connect with the board. I will try to punish him for that by raising.

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You should steer clear of the strategy involving punishing the person with the best hand with raises. I dunno, something just doesn't seem right about it...

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If he comes back at me with a reraise I'm screwed and will fold.

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The strategy where you raise with what is likely not the best hand with the intention of folding to a re-raise should probably be avoided as well. If you see him coming just cross the street. Dont look, no, DON'T LOOK AT HIM!!

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If not I'll take a free card on turn if offered and I don't connect with the board.

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This can be a fairly good play at times, but I'm not even going to go into how often this play flat out doesn't work in this situation, or when it does work it ends up being not worth it.

Oh alright...

Not often.

I'm going on the fair assumption that Pre-Flop was 3 limpers to you and you raised, not that it was Raise 2 COLDCALLS, and you 3-betting. Even then my advice is only slightly off.

In this hand you must understand, you don't have anywhere near the best hand. A donkbet and 2 callers on such a dry board is trouble for you. I know it looked perfect when you thought it up, but what do the callers have? At some point you run out of 2 OC hands for them to be calling with. Even if you do currently hold the best hand, their combined draws against you leave you behind in the equity race.

I call here, but I'm not doing cartwheels. I call here because the pot is huge at this point, but when an Ace falls on the Turn and the action goes bet, raise...I can find a fold when appropriate. Things like that...

If you own SSHE, re-read Pages 221-235, and maybe the Raising for a free card section starting on 167. While your doing that try and come up with another hand.
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  #16  
Old 10-13-2006, 04:30 AM
shimoda shimoda is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

OK. I hear you. I'll reread page 221-235 and see if any light goes off in my head.

(note to self: it is bettor NOT better)
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2006, 05:01 AM
jimpo jimpo is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

But what is really important is, who is the girl in your avatar?
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:09 AM
shimoda shimoda is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

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But what is really important is, who is the girl in your avatar?

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My wife! No it isn't.... and neither is the new one. I wanted some bounce there.
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  #19  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:13 AM
jimpo jimpo is offline
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Default Re: Correct play for 2 overcards

Damn, it's hypnotic.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2006, 09:25 AM
Hellmouth Hellmouth is offline
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Default Q

[ QUOTE ]
If rags are spread out like 2 5 9- bet. If rags are consecutive like 567- check. If your opponents are aggressive- check. If they are passive- bet. If your table image sucks- check, if good- bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say also factor into the equation how good your overs are. AK for example is unlikely to be dominated and make the best hand if you spike one of them. QT is a lot more likely to be dominated and you are more likely to lose to a hand that dominates you (eg AQ).

Also consider the odds. At the nanolimit tables you are a lot more likely to be getting correct odds if the table is passive and no one will raise behind you.

Assume for a moment that the board is not connected and not two or three flushed. You have pretty good over cards (mabe KQ or KJ). You have 6 outs. I would discount them to 4. (discount to 3 or 2 if the board is really coordinated or 2 suited). You claim that there are usually ~6 people in on the flop. That is 6 bets in on th flop. Effectively 3 half those people will call the flop. And usually anyone that calls the flop will be on average for 3 more small bets to the river. So the pot will be ~9sb by the turn and 19sb by the river (including now your flop bet but not the turn bet).

So 19sb is your implied odds. Four outs give you (46/4)-1 odds or 10.5:1. (You should memorize this one, you will use it a lot) Therefore you easily have the odds to call one flop bet. Right now you do not have enough in there to call a turn bet since 2sb will be necessary and 19/2 is only 9.5 not 10.5. However if you get another caller in there (four instead of three) you can bet/call again. this will become a mistake if the turn is raised.

If you get a lot of people ducking out on the flop (like 6 callers pf but pots are usually heads up after the flop) then check/fold line is better if you don't have a good enough table image to get everyone to fold to your flop bet.

This is quite a lot of information. I am pretty sure it is all correct. However if anyone sees a flaw let me know.

I think in the nano's you are less likely to be dominated by a great hand so maybe you can adjust the out count upward to 5 on a nonscary board. I am not sure. That would easily give you odds to call the flop and possibly the turn.

Greg
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