Super Tues AK v. Premier

[DCJ311]

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I really dislike winning money

I check behind now

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Are you seriously this much of a clown?

So your logic implies:

I don't like money because I dislike openshoving AK with 15+ BBs UTG.


If so, you're an idiot.


If you think I don't like money because I want to check behind flop, you're still an idiot.

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Are you aware that the main goal of a shove is to just pick up the blinds/antes a huge % of the time? I don't mind picking up 15% of my stack here without a showdown.

Making it 3k seriously invites people to call with pairs and AJ/AQ and use their position to get you to show weakness. You're not fooling anyone when you're a semi-predictable player making an UTG raise. Show that your hand is strong and allin. Don't allow yourself to play a flop out of position with stack sizes the way they are.

My shoving range here is AK, AQs, TT+ most of the time. If people think that's exploitable then I guess my MTT ROI must be an anomaly.

And yes 8Adam8, your line in this hand is way, way worse than shoving PF and/or betting the flop, and this type of post-flop situation comes up a lot more than you'd think.

[Body Man D]

I don't know Premier's range here but I'm often called a nit and I call a wide range here. When you raise 2.5x with ante's the bb is getting like 3.5/1 which is easy to call with any decent hand.

I'm not saying getting a call here is bad, but I do think his calling range is a lot wider than others have said.

[8Adam8]

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Are you aware that the main goal of a shove is to just pick up the blinds/antes a huge % of the time? I don't mind picking up 15% of my stack here without a showdown.

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Are you aware that you have no idea what you are talking about?

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Making it 3k seriously invites people to call with pairs and AJ/AQ and use their position to get you to show weakness. You're not fooling anyone when you're a semi-predictable player making an UTG raise. Show that your hand is strong and allin. Don't allow yourself to play a flop out of position with stack sizes the way they are.

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Yes we want to tell them our hand is strong since we have only a drawing hand and we don't want to get value out of AK, but want to play it safe and krtjgwjkthbwtjh LOL

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My shoving range here is AK, AQs, TT+ most of the time. If people think that's exploitable then I guess my MTT ROI must be an anomaly.

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So you open shove, AA, KK here? You're a good player.

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And yes 8Adam8, your line in this hand is way, way worse than shoving PF and/or betting the flop, and this type of post-flop situation comes up a lot more than you'd think.

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Your argument that open-shoving gains you more +EV than standard raising and it isn't even close is not even remotely correct.

[ssnyc]

okay...i usually do not play high stakes but consistantly win at the 10-20 MTT buy in level so take it with that in mind...I don't mind the open shove fo a few reasons...at the lower levels I get looked up by a wide range of hands and when I am at that 15 BB level I don't like to commit a lot and fold...I push big pairs here and usually get called pretty light...I also like pushing AK here because of the horrible position and the chance to add a nice chunk without a showdown...again at a higher level the thinking may be different...also I play a lot of turbo and semi turbos too (10 min blinds) so that is ingrained in my thinking...

If we take the 2.5 X route we are caling a push correct?? If I go this route I bet the flop and play on from there...

just my two cent all

[DCJ311]

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Are you aware that the main goal of a shove is to just pick up the blinds/antes a huge % of the time? I don't mind picking up 15% of my stack here without a showdown.

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Are you aware that you have no idea what you are talking about?

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Compelling rebuttal.

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Yes we want to tell them our hand is strong since we have only a drawing hand and we don't want to get value out of AK, but want to play it safe and krtjgwjkthbwtjh LOL

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You neglect that there are still players out there who will call your allin here with AQ that would have also called your 3k preflop. By not allinning you give them a chance to outdraw you, get off their hand post-flop, or outplay you using position. You also get a lot of pairs to fold that would have otherwise called you. Losing 3k here with your stack size is also a huge disaster.

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Your argument that open-shoving gains you more +EV than standard raising and it isn't even close is not even remotely correct.

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Based on what? There's a lot of nuances here based on your stack size and position that 99.9% of players don't understand. You have way worse reversed implied odds here than anyone who calls you. It's way better to win the money in the center rather than see a flop that you'll miss 2/3 of the time. The fact that you're willing to check behind on Jxx speaks volumes for your lack of knowledge on this situation. You're treating tournament poker like it's filled with people who don't make mistakes.

[Exitonly]

i agree more w/ DCJ than Adam.

shoving vs. 3xing depends on how you've been playing, and how you think the tbales goign to react, obviously. But we arent going to see AJ or worse often shove over our raise, so we might aswell shove and try and get as many pairs as possible to fold.

i shove here w/ TT and JJ reguarly, QQ+ i usually 3x-call with, but if i thought my shove wouldnt be getting tons of credit i've shoved with those hands too.

[DDBeast]

I think it's much more likely that AQ/AJ will shove over my pf raise than to cold call, and that they will likely fold to a shove.

[Exitonly]

if you dont think AQ will call your shove, but will shove over a 3x, well then i 3x.. shoving woudl have to fold out a lot of pairs to make up for that.

i think AQ calls the shove a lot of the time though

[registrar]

I don't like an open shove although not because our hand is transparent. I'd expect an UTG shove to be 88-TT, AK, AQs sort of thing. Transparent or not, we're not altering the reshoving range very much. As someone points out, we probably don't get called by AQ when we shove.

I think the raise size is fine too. How fine depends on who calls but this seems the best catch all.

I'd also check behind on the flop now that this BB has called. Unless we're still ahead, he's not folding IMO.

[nath]

a lot of you guys have such a hardon to make sure you don't shove PF with 15x stacks that you end up setting yourself up for stupid postflop spots like this