10NL KK turn

[zyrrth]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $12.65
BB: $11.90
Hero (UTG): $11.25
UTG+1: $22.90
MP1: $13.30
MP2: $27.25
MP3: $1.50
CO: $3.85
BTN: $7.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.40, 6 folds, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1.20</font>, UTG+1 calls $1.20, BB calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2.70</font>,
<font color="red">UTG+1 raises to $6.00</font>, BB calls $6.00,

standard fold?

[TJC]

No I don't think a fold is good here. You have to put in 3.30 more in a pot that is 19.55 that is about 6:1. Call at least, probably push.

Villian probably doesn't have the straight (8T preflop call makes it unlikely) so you are facing Two Pair or a Set (if you are behind) with TP you have 8 outs which puts your odds at &gt;6:1. With the set you are in bad shape with only two outs and odds of 23:1. I just don't think at this level you will be behind enough to fold. Any comments are welcome.

[Jay.Yang]

I say fold. Though the odds presented to you is favorable, the fact that BB c/c both Flop and Turn (he even flat call the UTG+1's raise) screams a lot of strength from him. I don't think we are ever good here. And if you call the Turn, you are pretty much committed on River, so it's not just the odds presented to you on Turn.

[phydaux]

I'm trying to think what hands smooth call pre-flop and then check/call the flop.

The only hands I can see him calling with pre-flop are medium and small pairs, for their set value. I can't see him calling pre-flop with SCs because most of the time if he catches anything it will just be a small piece of the flop, and then he'll be drawing from OOP. And that sucks.

He might do it with AK, but I think even a bad player would 3-bet with AK and try to take the pot down pre-flop. And wouldn't most players, even bad ones, 3-bet with JJ+? After all, again, he'll be OOP. Wouldn't he want the initiative? Wouldn't he want to find out if his QQ/JJ is beat early, while the bets are still cheap?

I suppose AA might smoothcall OOP preflop...

Given that pre-flop range, the only hands that check/call the flop are AA, KK, 22, 99 &amp; JJ. Maybe QQ &amp; AK. That's not a lot of hands you're ahead of unless this is some kind of float with air by BB. 30 hands beat you, 22 don't. ~42% pot equity.

TJC makes a valid point, though. After your turn bet and BB's check-raise there's ~$13.00 in the pot, $6.00 for you to call and you've only got $6.25 left.

Like Matt &amp; Sonny say in PNL, after 1/3 of your stack has gone in the pot, it is usually wrong to fold. 2:1 pot odds and you're roughly 3:2. Shove that last quarter and see.

[phydaux]

D'oh! Math error.

Only 24 hands beat you, because KK splits the pot. 24:22 = easy shove. Even is we discount AK &amp; QQ a little, it's still not as bad as 2:1 against. Call.

[checkmate36]

I have been reading PNL and trying to apply its ideas into my play.

The text points out that you need to have a commitment plan before putting in one third of your stack. You have the smallest stack on this hand so yours is the effective stack.

There are a few excetions but its usually an error to put in 1/3 of your stack and then fold. Before you make your turn bet, you need to have a plan for the rest of the loot in your stack.

I think the real question is what can hero do different leading up to the point of the hand in question. Keep in mind I only play 5NL so I may be in need of some correction in how I understand the text.

[checkmate36]

How bad is a check on the turn by hero after BB checks the turn?

Once hero bets the flop, we need start thinking about if we will commit on this hand. I don't see any reads on villians so Im not sure if its correct to commit on this hand or not. I know that if Im not commited, Im going to try to keep the pot small and that leads to my question of checking on the turn.

[Teddie]

I'd bet more on the turn so i am commited too the pot. Checking folding is possible, but i dont think i could fold Kings is this spot.

[zyrrth]

I push, both call UTG+1 shows 22, BB shows JJ, river bricks

I was close to folding though because bb's call threw me off, also checking the turn seemed weak at the time esp after bb checked to me.

[CaptVimes]

I check this turn a lot. I haven't read PNL, but I'm starting to understand the idea of having a commitment level in certain situations. I really want to show down this hand and am using my position to show it down for my value not BB's. Plus I loving calling Rivers when goofs bluff missed draws. If you check the turn you have to be willing to call a decent bet on the river though. Plus I think villains tend to lead out smaller because they are afraid of losing you. I value bet the river if it's checked to me again, unless the board gets really ugly.

Of course if villain is a station and will call big bets down with AJ, then fire away on the turn.