WA/WB? All The Time!

[Zeldark]

When you say that a hand is WA/WB, what are you really saying about your hand?
Is there one right way to play all WA/WB hands?
Just because it sounds fancy to classify something WA/WB doesn't make it WA/WB. This is a term used far too loosely.

Seriously think about how ahead/behind your hand is and how easy or hard it is to draw, be outdrawn and redrawn before you slap on the WA/WB label.

Hand 1:
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


Hand 2:
9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


Hand 3:
K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


Hand 4:
7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]


Hand 5:
K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[jjshabado]

I think its pretty clear only Hand 1 applies. Everything else is clearly not WA/WB

Hand 1: If someone has a J or pocket 2s you've got two outs. Otherwise you're ahead and everybody else is likely drawing to runner/runner. Hence WA/WB.

Hand 2-4: If you think these are WA/WB, you suck at poker.

Hand 5: Closer than 2-4 but still not WA/WB. Sure if you're beat you're WB, but if you're ahead someone with an A has 10 outs and someone with a pair (J, 5, or pocket) has 4 outs, so I don't consider this WA.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: If someone has a J or pocket 2s you've got two outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 4 outs against 22. But yeah, the key here is to figure out what hand has the most outs if behind on these boards. If that hand has more than 4 outs no way can it be called WA/WB.

[Buzz-cp]

zeldark, what is the preflop action? I ccan't vote until I see.

Buzz

[Shillx]

I voted for 3 & 4. Good pole

[Xhad]

I just assumed villain's range was atc in all cases. Obv there are more possible WA/WB situations if we are allowed to narrow handranges to hands that do not have many outs.

[Zeldark]

The idea was to compare WA/WB against the genral range of hands.
BUT, I'll humor you:

Hand 1: We raise MP after one limper and get called by one LP, one blind, and the limper.

Hand 2: We raise first in MP and get called by 2 loose callers and the BB.

Hand 3: We raise UTG and get called my 2 LPP, 1 LAG, and unknown and reraised by a solid player. Blinds fold, all else calls.

Hand 4: 3 LPP limp, a solid player limps UTG, SB completes, we get a free look at the flop from the BB.
Flop: SB donks, we raise, UTG calls, 2 of the LPP fold, SB calls.

Hand 5: Very straightforward but seemingly solid players limps UTG, LPP follows, we raise MP, solid button calls, very loose passive SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
Flop: UTG donks, all call.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: If someone has a J or pocket 2s you've got two outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 4 outs against 22. But yeah, the key here is to figure out what hand has the most outs if behind on these boards. If that hand has more than 4 outs no way can it be called WA/WB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, true. I actually added pocket 2s at the last second since I missed that we were behind.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted for 3 & 4. Good pole

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? How'd you come up with that?

'Cause the answer is not a [censored] one of these are WA/WB, at least not so much that we should take a modest, passive line to prevent either forcing a fold if we're WA or getting repeatedly owned if we're WB. Part of what makes WA/WB is that the odds are roughly equal that we're either WA or WB.

Hand 1: we have AA and fear only Jx or 22. We're almost always WA and rarely WB.

Hand 2: we're never ever WA when we have a weak overpair. The straight draw only makes things worse.

Hand 3: we currently have King-high, so we can't possibly be WA. Our monster draw means we can jam the hell out if it unless we're HU.

Hand 4: Two pair is almost always WA. I may be cheating a little, but if we had 72, that means we were probably in the big blind and got a free ride, which means hands like KK, QQ, and KQ are less likely to be out since the pot was limped preflop.

Hand 5: With the nut flush, it's true that if we're behind, we're way behind, because we only have one out to beat a full house/quads. But if we're ahead, we're not way ahead, since any Ax has nine outs.

[00Snitch]

[ QUOTE ]

I voted for 3 & 4


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

How can hand 3 ever be either way ahead or way behind? If you are ahead, your opponent has 0-6 outs. If you are behind you have something like 15-20 outs.

Hand 4 (this is a bit hard without the action so far, but anyway), if you are behind, you have to be think you have 4 outs. If you are ahead, your opponent has 5 outs if he paired a King or Queen, four outs if he has a gutshot and 8 outs for an open-ender. 88+ has eight outs.