Stars 109 bluff

DLizzle · #1 06-23-2007, 12:14 AM

Villain is a tournament regular that I've played with before but not much. I'm not really sure how he sees me, and I've only been at the table for less than an orbit. I assume he's a decent thinking player which could be off, but I know he plays a lot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO (t2650)
Button (t3100)
SB (t2970)
BB (t3350)
Hero (t5395)
UTG+1 (t3700)
MP1 (t4855)
MP2 (t5010)
MP3 (t1430)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t300, 1 fold, MP1 calls t300, 6 folds.

Flop: (t750) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t400, MP1 calls t400.

Turn: (t1550) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t1200, Hero raises to t4695

Austiger · #2 06-23-2007, 12:31 AM

The problem here IMO is that you're trying to bluff someone who has already put about 40% of their stack in the middle and they probably have an overpair or set. I say meh. If it were a cash game you would need to do this occasionally for metagame, but here I think you're getting called a lot.

DLizzle · #3 06-23-2007, 12:46 AM

ya it looks like he has a ton of his stack in there so he has to call? Is that as far as a tournament players logic goes? To me, his hand looks like a medium pair on the turn. I don't see what else he ever has here. I guess I have to throw some bluffs and sets and big pairs into the mix but a massive part of his range is a one pair hand between 8x and JJ. To him, I either have him beat or I'm bluffing. He has a bluff catcher with JJ here. If he in fact has a medium pair he should know that his hand looks like exactly that, and that he has a lot of money in there, he knows that I know that, so he should be less likely to think I'm bluffing. Also, if I have him beat he has 2 outs, and if I'm bluffing I likely have 6. This could still be a really bad move, it certainly is against a random donk, but if you think it is bad, how deep would we need to be to make it good?

cferejohn · #4 06-23-2007, 01:20 AM

What story are you trying to tell here? That is, you think he's a good player, so he's got to be putting you on something. What hand do you think you are repping? Seems to me an overpair would have just bet out on the turn. Maybe you check-raise aces, *maybe* kings, but 99-QQ I expect you would bet every time (and I would expect him to think the same thing).

I guess you *could* play a flopped set this way, but really I would expect a flopped set to just bet ~1000 on the turn to see if you could play for all the chips. If you have a set and he checks behind, you might be costing yourself a lot of money since he has shown that he had enough to call a flop bet with. If you have tangled several times in the past and he's floated you and taken the pot away on the turn a couple times, I might like that line better for a set. Edit: Also, you probably aren't raising UTG with 33 or 44.

Given that you have just gotten here, and he probably knows about the same about you that you do about him (you are a tournament regular and presumably decent), your hand looks overwhelmingly like what it is: a bluff with 2 overcards. If a scarier turn card had hit (a king would be perfect), I'd like it better.

DLizzle · #5 06-23-2007, 01:33 AM

really I think c/r looks much stronger than betting out here

Austiger · #6 06-23-2007, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ya it looks like he has a ton of his stack in there so he has to call? Is that as far as a tournament players logic goes?

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Yes I'm thinking in terms of a tourney player....meaning that a cash player is simply going to give you credit unless he thinks your bluffing and make a big laydown here with JJ etc...whereas in a tournament everyone knows you have to take risks to win the big money, and nobody likes to put a good portion of their stack in and fold. I think he probably is playing it cautious by not raising the flop, but even people who play cautiously like that are libel to call when you put them to the test.

There is a good chance he was thinking that you both have overpairs and he would rather not play for stacks at this point in case he's beat, so he just called PF and flop. But now that you have forced the issue, he's likely to be past the point of no return in his mind.

Don't rule out AA/KK either.

cferejohn · #7 06-23-2007, 01:40 AM

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really I think c/r looks much stronger than betting out here

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Really? Put yourself in his shoes. What hand is the UTG raiser check-raising on this board. Pretty much specifically 88 or a bluff, *maybe* AA. What range is betting out on the turn? 99-AA plus overcard bluffs, and that range is going to look a lot scarier.

BUTNAHHHH · #8 06-23-2007, 01:55 AM

id rather check rasie flop then bet out turn , and check river

checkpushing river there looks like a spew to me

DLizzle · #9 06-23-2007, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
really I think c/r looks much stronger than betting out here

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Put yourself in his shoes. What hand is the UTG raiser check-raising on this board. Pretty much specifically 88 or a bluff, *maybe* AA. What range is betting out on the turn? 99-AA plus overcard bluffs, and that range is going to look a lot scarier.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if you don't c/r this turn pretty frequently you should add it in your game. I would c/r a lot of hands that aren't the ones you specify that I think are the best hand. I don't really think my play was good though and I basically agree with Austiger for the reasoning, especially given that he snap called 99.

plzleenowhammy · #10 06-23-2007, 03:30 AM

I like it. I think it's creative and quite sick. Probably would have worked if he had just a wee big more in his stack. Good times, sir. Keep posting interesting hands.