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#22
04-10-2007, 10:25 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
Concisely? Not really. Aesthetic/virtue driven, I don't think others should adhere to it per se. Best I can do as far as concise go. [/ QUOTE ] So how does this conflict with libertarian morals? You do what you want (which is adhere to your moral code) and do not interfere with others doing what they want (which may be adhering to the same code or other things- and you don't think others should adhere to yours per se). I don't see where the problem is. Please explain. 
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#23
04-10-2007, 10:27 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to make this a very long and well thought out post but basically I'm lazy. Given: We have guns and money in our society. Given: We want to move to AC society, but we theoretically still have guns and money (or wealth, if we decide to abandon the dollar... we still have things worth something to people). How exactly are we to stop some group from having the same control over people that governments tend to now? The problem, as I see it, is that the government does NOT have a monopoly on coercion. It has a legal monopoly, but that means little without the power to enforce those laws, which by definition is the power necessary to coerce in the first place. Laws by themselves are meaningless. In some parts of the country/world, violent mobs have more power and more ability to coerce and "tax" citizens than the governments which theoretically rule over them. What is to stop this from happening in AC? [/ QUOTE ] Think about this. Your hypothetical begins with a given population that wants to get rid of government. They will have the will to say "no" to the biggest collection of coercive force ever assembled. This is your starting assumption. Now, they're just going to roll over for some neighborhood gang? Any force assembled that is powerful enough to conquer these people would be more than enough to conquer the state that was in place before. This is the "Death Star Objection". See THIS previous post.
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#24
04-10-2007, 10:29 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Concisely? Not really. Aesthetic/virtue driven, I don't think others should adhere to it per se. Best I can do as far as concise go. [/ QUOTE ] So how does this conflict with libertarian morals? You do what you want (which is adhere to your moral code) and do not interfere with others doing what they want (which may be adhering to the same code or other things- and you don't think others should adhere to yours per se). I don't see where the problem is. Please explain. [/ QUOTE ] When did I say I didn't interfere with others? The problem as I stated is that libertarian morality (unless you could somehow insure every single person had it) wouldn't really contribute to a world state in which AC was realistic.
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#25
04-10-2007, 10:32 PM
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Re: AC and power
Given: That the majority of people don't believe in the government Tooth Fairy anymore, I don't see the problem. Our government only gets away with it now because the majority of American citizens have been duped (in government-run schools) into believing government is necessary.
Note that I am NOT saying this is always the case; in any country where, for example, the population has allowed itself to be disarmed by the state, they are pretty much [censored] and at the mercy of that state. In any country where most of the capital has either fled the borders or has been confiscated by the government (and probably converted into automatic weapons), the people are pretty much [censored]. We're not at that point yet, but we're getting closer every day. There's a race on right now between markets and the state. The question is will markets make the state irrelevant before the state destroys the markets? I'm optimistic for the US, but really, it could go either way.
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#26
04-10-2007, 10:34 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
Your hypothetical begins with a given population that wants to get rid of government. They will have the will to say "no" to the biggest collection of coercive force ever assembled. This is your starting assumption. Now, they're just going to roll over for some neighborhood gang? Any force assembled that is powerful enough to conquer these people would be more than enough to conquer the state that was in place before. [/ QUOTE ] Again, the world is continuous. It is in flux. It's not like it just hops from state to state. You haven't even described what sort of revolution/overthrow of government, and yet you seem to imply that it automatically prevents anyone else, in any region anywhere, from coercing people. Absurd, IMO.
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#27
04-10-2007, 10:40 PM
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Re: AC and power
If we posted our detailed plans for overthrowing the gubmint on the intarwebs we'd be on the nightly news tomorrow with pictures of our "compound" and our neighbors saying, "They always seemed like such quiet people."
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#28
04-10-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Concisely? Not really. Aesthetic/virtue driven, I don't think others should adhere to it per se. Best I can do as far as concise go. [/ QUOTE ] So how does this conflict with libertarian morals? You do what you want (which is adhere to your moral code) and do not interfere with others doing what they want (which may be adhering to the same code or other things- and you don't think others should adhere to yours per se). I don't see where the problem is. Please explain. [/ QUOTE ] When did I say I didn't interfere with others? The problem as I stated is that libertarian morality (unless you could somehow insure every single person had it) wouldn't really contribute to a world state in which AC was realistic. [/ QUOTE ] So you are virtuous and like to forcibly interfere with others who are doing you or others no harm, but you see other systems where people do not forcibly interfere with each other or harm each other as inferior? If this is true, sounds like you would be one of the people with guns trying to take over....
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#29
04-10-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
How exactly are we to stop some group from having the same control over people that governments tend to now? [/ QUOTE ] By defending yourself.
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#30
04-10-2007, 10:56 PM
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Re: AC and power
[ QUOTE ]
So you are virtuous and like to forcibly interfere with others who are doing you or others no harm, but you see other systems where people do not forcibly interfere with each other or harm each other as inferior? [/ QUOTE ] Well I think libertarians in general horribly misunderstand how one can "harm others or themselves". I've started threads on this before, I really don't know why I bother anymore because it seems like this is going nowhere.
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