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  #31  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:26 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
From Wikipedia:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an "undesirable" population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.

I'm not implicitly articulating anything here. I'm saying the post in question was a disgrace because it called Arabs lying sacks of crap and because it advocates the transfer (or, as he put it, the "dumping" of the native Palestinians who still reside in Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's the denotation. However it has a much wider connotation which is why I objected to the term "ethnic cleansing" being made equivalent to the action of forced removal that doesn't involve/forsee killing.
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:26 AM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs


Arabs (not Palestinians) make up more than a fifth of Israeli citizens.

Good idea to rip out 1.3 million of your citizens and dump them over the border.
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:33 AM
mrick mrick is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Israelis are Lying Sacks of Crap


Does this qualify as "otherwise objectionable"?

"While using 2+2 website, you may not post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libellous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, profane, or otherwise objectionable information of any kind"


[/ QUOTE ] If you can both a) prove it, and b) demonstrate you needed to make such an inflammatory statement in a given context, then why should it be objectionable to a rational person and violate the T&C?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all very charming but still extremely smelly.

Andyfox is of course being the adult here but I doubt if his adult approach will find many supporters.

It's really very simple - and we can use your own pseudo-logic to demonstrate : Suppose poster A puts up a post that for the very first time, ever, in the history of 2+2 alleges that Italians are "lying sacks of crap". According to your logic he would have to prove it! Guess what, I agree. The poster should have to prove it. Trying to prove that would lead to the meat of poster A's proclamation (and most likely show that he was wrong).

Now, if poster A by some miracle demonstrates that indeed "Italians are lying sacks of craps", such a statement can be posted on 2+2 without any problem. But what if poster A cannot prove it? Would this mean that nobody, ever again, under any circumstances, could claim on 2+2 that "Italians are lying sacks of craps"??

But this would be not just a dishonest rule, it would also be wrong! For the simple reason, that logic and arguments never stay stale; they advance, change or augment. What if poster A used arguments a, b and c and was defeated on them -- but now I present argument d? Is this new argument never allowed to see the light of day on 2+2? (You can see the absurdity of such logic, if we were to follow this about poker. The ranks of hands, for example, would have been set in stone years ago!)

Therefore, as andyfox succinctly demonstrate through the example he gave, the rule should be interpreted as either (a) no inflammatory statements whatsoever about any nation, person, group, etc, in which case Felix Nietsche is due for a ban, --or-- (b) hey, you folks can argue whatever the hell you like, as long as the mods keep it civil and not repetitious.

Goes without saying that I vote (b). You, on the other hand, essentially vote for a variant which goes "No inflammatory statements, etc, about Jews and Israelis", implying that it has been established that Jews and Israelis are NOT lying sacks of crap (I happen to agree with this, but that's not the point) AND that it has also been established that Islamists/Arabs/Palestinians are lying sacks of crap and therefore anyone can freely post this "truth". Ergo, according to your logic, one can insult FOR EVER Arabs and Muslims, while one can NEVER insult Jews and Israel.

2+2... A place full of magic mirrors.
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:44 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

mrick,

You mischaracterized what I said for I didn't state that having proven something was true or false, that it was for all time true or false regardless of changing conditions. This *should* be obvious since I am focusing on truth/falsity and actions, instead of on inherent qualities of race.

The standard of truth/falsity is judged at the instant an assertion is made and is applied to the scope of an assertion. I.E., saying X is a lying piece of crap without limitations implies that X has always and is still lying. Obviously there are other alternatives such as lying now, has lied for the past X years or about such and such a position.

You used a lot of words to say not much and not prove anything.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:22 AM
ElliotR ElliotR is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

I must say that whomever chose the title for this thread did a poor job. I thought, until I saw Andy's locked post, that this thread was about someone's complaint about Israel.


Now having read this thread, I thank zaster for speaking up and andy for being the conscience of this board. They are entirely right.

And I thank iron for making this a separate thread (even if he chose the bad title), so that I could delight in the delicious irony of seeing BluffTHIS! say to someone else "You used a lot of words to say not much and not prove anything".

Excellent!
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  #36  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:22 AM
iron81 iron81 is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

I'm persuaded that the "piece of crap" comment is inappropriate. However, I don't see the point in deleting an OP that has been up for 3 days. Please hit notify mod on any similar that is more recent and I'll clean the thread up in the morning.

However, advocacy of war, and yes war crimes like ethnic cleansing, is a legitimate political position. I won't moderate that.
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:30 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
I'm persuaded that the "piece of crap" comment is inappropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust you are only persuaded as to the unlimited scope of the statement in absence of proof of the unlimited broadest scope, is that correct? I.E., if he either demonstrated reasonable proof of such a broad statement (even if all or most don't agree), or if he limited the scope, then you would be OK with it wouldn't you?

To be clear, I don't think he has proven the broadest scope of that comment, but believe he could prove a narrower scope (like "the majority of Palestinians who support Fatah and Hamas).
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:21 AM
mrick mrick is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
You mischaracterized what I said for I didn't state that having proven something was true or false, that it was for all time true or false regardless of changing conditions.

[/ QUOTE ] I merely extended your "logic" to its natural conclusion.

[ QUOTE ]
I am focusing on truth/falsity and actions, instead of on inherent qualities of race.

The standard of truth/falsity is judged at the instant an assertion is made and is applied to the scope of an assertion. I.E., saying X is a lying piece of crap without limitations implies that X has always and is still lying.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course you can argue that X is a LPOC now, e.g. "The Arabs, in the context of the Israel/Arab conflict, are LPOC". That would be a valid argument IMO -- which would need to be justified of course, in the course of a dicsussion. We seem to agree that making a claim about the attributes of a group of people, any kind of people, needs to be justified -- otherwise the claimant is by default a bigot.

But the issue is different than this and very, very clear. And I'll make it clearer!

Seems like Felix Nietche is free to claim that "Arabs are LPOC" (now, forever, or "in the context, etc" doesn't matter). Is Andyfox or me or anyone else free to claim that "Israelis are LPOC" ? And since the mods have ruled that proposals for war and ethnic cleansing can be advocated and discussed on this forum, am I allowed to propose that all Israelis should be deported from "Palestine" and that every Israeli --man,woman, or child-- who refuses to leave should be EXTERMINATED ??


Note that Andyfox was somewhat more discreet than Felix. Andyfox wrote about "Israelis"; while the proper counter-example to Felix's "Arabs" is of course "Jews"...
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:46 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You mischaracterized what I said for I didn't state that having proven something was true or false, that it was for all time true or false regardless of changing conditions.

[/ QUOTE ] I merely extended your "logic" to its natural conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Cyrus,

I am only going to address this part of your post in order to show everyone what a lying intentionally distorting piece of [censored] you are.

You have deliberately used a logical fallacy here. When I say the weather condition is "cloudy", by your "logic", I am saying the weather has always been and will always be cloudy. Thus you have intentionally ignored the time limitation in order to misportray what I said.

Regardless of whether the IP address of your mrick account matches that of proven former Cyrus accounts, you are the same and if iron doesn't acknowledge that and ban your ass he is being willfully blind. GTFO.
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  #40  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:54 AM
mrick mrick is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

[ QUOTE ]


I am only going to address this part of your post in order to show everyone what a lying intentionally distorting piece of [censored] you are.

You have deliberately used a logical fallacy here. When I say the weather condition is "cloudy", by your "logic", I am saying the weather has always been and will always be cloudy. Thus you have intentionally ignored the time limitation in order to misportray what I said.

[/ QUOTE ] No, I specifically accepted that it's OK to claim that "X is LPOC" now or for any period in history. The question remains if you can say this about any X or only about Arabs as Felix did.

The rest of your incoherence about "Cyrus" should I care about? Because I dont know what youre talking about.
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