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  #11  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:14 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

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The presumption that rivalry games are different from other games makes the assumption that people aren't always trying their hardest to win, which I think for the vast majority of the folks involved in high level sports is kinda silly and insulting.

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Where it is different is for Ohio State for example under Woody Hayes and Tressel (but not Cooper and I don't know about Bruce) they would work on something for Michigan everyday.

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The question is how much does that matter? I'm not saying it doesn't but it isn't like this establishes a causal connection either (I realize demanding such proof creates an impossible standard; I'm just sayin...). Sparty put a countdown clock in the lockerroom, similar to how Tressel said he would make OSU proud in 300whatever days. Didn't work so well for Sparty.

It's kind of like the inflamatory comment idea. David Boston or Terry Glenn or Chuck Winters makes a derogatory comment about the other team ("they're nothing" or "we'll keep doing this til we get him fired") and the other team is fired up and wins, and causal significance is attributed to the comment. Now, not saying that's false or anything, but there are all sorts of possible counter-examples too (Harbaugh guarantees a win and they do). It's just a situation where you presuppose your conclusion and find something that could plausibly support it, rather than the other way around.

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Its called the narrative fallacy. It explains roughly 90% of sports journalism.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:44 PM
Todd Terry Todd Terry is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

John Cooper was the worst big game coach in the history of college football. And it's not even close. He lost many Michigan and bowl games that he should have won. The 1993 game where Ohio State came in undefeated and lost 28-0 was one of the worst performances of all time. The Biakabatuka game in 1995 wasn't much better. Losing to Air Force in the bowl game. This is just off the top of my head, I've probably blocked out the rest as a defense mechanism.

I'm not sure Carr has lost any to Tressel that he should have won.

Edit: Just realized I didn't answer the question. Answer: yes, because if someone can be horribly bad at it, it must be a skill.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:52 PM
damaniac damaniac is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

Carr probably should have won in 01 and 04. The 01 Michigan team was pretty good early on but started on a downward spiral in the State game that year. We won a game at Wisconsin while having 1 or 0 first downs in the 2nd half, for example. So it's not clear that, given the arc of the team, that it was one he should have won, although Michigan was playing for the Rose Bowl (actually Sugar) and OSU was 6-5 or something like that. 04 was another bad one but on the road at least.

Otherwise he actually did pretty good in that in 02 and 05 OSU was clearly better, in 05 much better, yet both games came down to the wire. Granted, no one cares about moral victories but given the quality of the teams Michigan did quite well.

And of course he pulled 95 and 96 out of nowhere.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2007, 03:57 PM
MiloDanglers MiloDanglers is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

I've posted this before but I will say it again. I had a friend who used to play for OSU(2002-2004). He said that there was a portion of practice each week dedicated to Michigan. They would either watch UM film or practice against the scout team mimicking UM personnel. It didn't matter if OSU was facing Penn State in week 9 or Akron in week 1, they were still preparing for Michigan.

You can debate if this is skill or not, but it is definitely a different strategy. I never asked if they did it for any other team but I doubt they do.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:08 PM
damaniac damaniac is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

What's more impressive is that it didn't seem to interfere with success in other games (again, assuming this has a significant substantive meaning).
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:32 PM
Dudd Dudd is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

I think it has more to do with Michigan measuring their program against Ohio State, and Tressell>>>>Lloyd, so if your current coach can't get the job done, you have to find someone who can.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2007, 08:14 PM
damaniac damaniac is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

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I think it has more to do with Michigan measuring their program against Ohio State, and Tressell>>>>Lloyd, so if your current coach can't get the job done, you have to find someone who can.

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What has what to do with what?
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:22 PM
Jack Bando Jack Bando is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

I asked FootballOutsiders a few months ago about this regarding the NFL and rivalry games and Aaron said he ran the numbers and it doesn't matter. You're just as likely to see Green Bay beat Chicago as you are Green Bay beat a Chicago clone that wasn't their "rival".
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:30 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

[ QUOTE ]
John Cooper was the worst big game coach in the history of college football. And it's not even close. He lost many Michigan and bowl games that he should have won. The 1993 game where Ohio State came in undefeated and lost 28-0 was one of the worst performances of all time. The Biakabatuka game in 1995 wasn't much better. Losing to Air Force in the bowl game. This is just off the top of my head, I've probably blocked out the rest as a defense mechanism.

I'm not sure Carr has lost any to Tressel that he should have won.

Edit: Just realized I didn't answer the question. Answer: yes, because if someone can be horribly bad at it, it must be a skill.

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You realize someone has to be horribly bad at it right? Just like someone has to be pretty good at it. They cant all be exactly as expected.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:31 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Winning rivalry games, is it a skill?

[ QUOTE ]
I've posted this before but I will say it again. I had a friend who used to play for OSU(2002-2004). He said that there was a portion of practice each week dedicated to Michigan. They would either watch UM film or practice against the scout team mimicking UM personnel. It didn't matter if OSU was facing Penn State in week 9 or Akron in week 1, they were still preparing for Michigan.

You can debate if this is skill or not, but it is definitely a different strategy. I never asked if they did it for any other team but I doubt they do.

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So the question is does this correlate with winning, losing or nothing?
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