KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall - Page 2

LuckyLloyd · #11 11-23-2007, 11:01 AM

A couple things regarding betting the flop:

- Stacksize of villian is such that you can't continuation bet / fold;
- When a short stack is all in most players take a "lets check it down mentallity". If he fires at us on the turn or river he will never be bluffing.
- As such, if you check back this flop and bet a checked turn you will be in a great spot to take value off one pair hands you beat. Particularly BECAUSE you checked the flop back.

I really do not believe that checking this flop is all that bad. It is an odd situation where we almost never get bluffed off the best hand and he will play kinda faceup on the turn and river for us.

As for everything else; calling pre is fine. Min raising would be retarded obv.

You have to call the turn. I hate the river spot because you are getting a sick price - but I think it is a fold.

Ford Fairlane · #12 11-23-2007, 11:25 AM

Isolate pre, bet flop

LuckyLloyd · #13 11-23-2007, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Isolate pre, bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]
STFU with a post like that.

Why should we isolate pre when you look at the stacksizes of your opponents? There is not a whole lot of money to go in against anyone and the pot is now going to be at least 21k on the flop.

If someone known to be a top player or a regular contributer wants to come in and give a one line response fair enough. You have five [censored] posts to your name. The above is needlessly arrogant and completely unhelpful. Grinds my gears it does. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

JammyDodga · #14 11-23-2007, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple things regarding betting the flop:

- Stacksize of villian is such that you can't continuation bet / fold;
- When a short stack is all in most players take a "lets check it down mentallity". If he fires at us on the turn or river he will never be bluffing.
- As such, if you check back this flop and bet a checked turn you will be in a great spot to take value off one pair hands you beat. Particularly BECAUSE you checked the flop back.

I really do not believe that checking this flop is all that bad. It is an odd situation where we almost never get bluffed off the best hand and he will play kinda faceup on the turn and river for us.

As for everything else; calling pre is fine. Min raising would be retarded obv.

You have to call the turn. I hate the river spot because you are getting a sick price - but I think it is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right about the dry pot, but problem is that he could be value betting/portecting against draws with a worse hand if he does start betting, so I'm not sure it puts his hand as face up as you think.

You are right about not c-betting/folding, but with an under-repped overpair, I've got no intention of doing so. If i didn't push, id be bet/calling.

That said, I'd just push this flop right there and hope to get called by one pair or a draw not getting the odds. I'm happy getting it in on this flop, but the board is a bit drawy to be giving him a free card.

JammyDodga · #15 11-23-2007, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isolate pre, bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]
STFU with a post like that.

Why should we isolate pre when you look at the stacksizes of your opponents? There is not a whole lot of money to go in against anyone and the pot is now going to be at least 21k on the flop.

If someone known to be a top player or a regular contributer wants to come in and give a one line response fair enough. You have five [censored] posts to your name. The above is needlessly arrogant and completely unhelpful. Grinds my gears it does. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not really the lack of posts, its more the choice of thread.

There's a lot of hands which are pretty simple, and a 1 line response is fine, no matter who it comes from, but here there's obviously been a lot of thought and discussion going on, so a 1 line post which repeats what has already been said, isn't particularly useful.

That said, welcome to the boards, please stick around, read the FAqs etc, and after you get the hang of things, please post, we always welcome new posters.

Ford Fairlane · #16 11-23-2007, 12:36 PM

sry for the quick post, have not that much time posting at work
given the stack sizes the BB is the only concern, and if he tends to squeeze in this spot then the flat call is superior to the isolation play
if the BB tends to cold call raises, in my opinion the 3-bet is better (although he would have to commit 1/5 of his stack, so an overcall is not that likely at all)
once you've just called and he overcalls and checks to you
I would bet out because very likely we have the best hand here and our overpair is vulnarable to a lot of holdings the BB can have

brad2002tj · #17 11-23-2007, 12:39 PM

I don't like playing kk multiway unless I know someone behind is likely to squeeze, so I push pre flop. As played bet flop.

ChipSpeak · #18 11-23-2007, 03:43 PM

Ace, I suspect you were attempting to induce a squeeze here?
Your thoughts as you're going through the hand would be great, you're a good thinking player, maybe I'm missing something. Particularly the check behind on this draw heavy flop.
As played, I think that flop needs a bet, not many cards come off the turn that we feel great about, we are letting him hit a huge draw, free. I like a check behind here on quite a few flops, possibly getting BB to commit.
The fold is fine, we're beat here the vast majority of times.

AceofSpades · #19 11-23-2007, 04:38 PM

Here is my thinking

[ QUOTE ]

Hero (BTN): 104,090
SB: 23,915
BB: 50,583
UTG: 9,957
UTG+1: 7,260
MP1: 10,403
MP2: 36,793
CO: 19,871

Pre-Flop: (3,600) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, MP1 raises to 10,253 and is All-In, 2 folds, Hero calls 10,253,

::: Hero calls, MP1 range is probably pockets, and Ax
In any event, KK has that crushed unless an ace flops, so I'm ok with other people calling here, because I'm beat often if an ace flops anyway so I'm not worried about letting others in. I like most flops, + I have position and a playable stack should I lose.
::::

SB folds, BB calls 8,653

:::: Ok BB calls, good so far ::::::

Flop: (32,759) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
BB checks,
::: This is one of the few flops I DON'T like, I might overestimate the likelyhood getting check raised here, but I think most of the time BB is check raising hands that beat me (2pairs, straight, sets) and perhaps AQ type hands.

<--- this might be flawed
:::: So I figured instead of being way behind and committed, I'd check since I could gauge his hand strength fairly well in the dry pot. ::::::

Hero checks

Turn: (32,759) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
BB bets 3,200, Hero calls 3,200
::::: Didn't really think much here, he could be taking a stab, or have a pair, I think sets are much less likely with this small bet, but he could be scared of the straight that developed. ::::

River: (39,159) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
BB bets 11,200,
::: Hmmm, this should be a scare card for him, yet he bets it. I think he's got me beat/It's possible for him to have AQ here I suppose(And be making a bet/fold but it's a dry pot), that's about the only hand I see KK beating. Since the dry pot I doubt he'd be bluffing me with air here. I have a playable stack and thus I fold:::

Hero folds

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ssnyc · #20 11-23-2007, 05:05 PM

the passive line is okay but I bet the flop always...on the river I don't see folding given the weakness of your line and the pot odds he is offering you...

what did BB have? I'm sure this is somewhat of a results oriented post so I guess the fold was correct..AJ or KJ for BB?