Zeldumb?! Zelucky?! Zeldawesome?! (How's that for unbiased?)

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did u call also river UI when comes non flush blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

[FineStyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shoulden't we fold turn? We have just strong overcards and we dont have odds to call turn bet.

Its sort of hand where i dont know whe people sometimes call even they dont have enought pot odds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Are here any rules when call and when just do odds math when u HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont call because of pot odds.

i call because our hand is often best in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats right, in this games in a lot of cases.

[bravos1]

I just call the river the first time. The second river decision is closer to a fold than a call, but the pot is big. Tis why I just call the river bet.

[OrigamiSensei]

For those advocating folding the turn: in many micro games we see villains pumping straight and flush draws with insufficient odds on an assumption of drawing odds combined with semi-bluff fold equity. Or it could be a bluff-raise with overcards. Or it could be a smaller overpair. It is unlikely that the flop hit villain and even though the turn jack is more dangerous the bet will often be the second barrel of a bluff or semi-bluff and not necessarily a pair of jacks. AK is often good here and we do have six outs if it isn't.

I don't like the river c/r because it's too fancy and the ace will often scare a villain into checking behind. I prefer a bet/call line in case villain spiked something lucky. A river bet is for value because villian will have to call with an ace and a worse unpaired kicker.

[JJack]

[ QUOTE ]
For those advocating folding the turn: in many micro games we see villains pumping straight and flush draws with insufficient odds on an assumption of drawing odds combined with semi-bluff fold equity. Or it could be a bluff-raise with overcards. Or it could be a smaller overpair. It is unlikely that the flop hit villain and even though the turn jack is more dangerous the bet will often be the second barrel of a bluff or semi-bluff and not necessarily a pair of jacks. AK is often good here and we do have six outs if it isn't.

I don't like the river c/r because it's too fancy and the ace will often scare a villain into checking behind. I prefer a bet/call line in case villain spiked something lucky. A river bet is for value because villian will have to call with an ace and a worse unpaired kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice explanation sensei !

BWT is the situation change when Q falls instead J falls at turn? still we wanna call turn ?

[Buzz-cp]

[ QUOTE ]
I just call the river the first time. The second river decision is closer to a fold than a call, but the pot is big. Tis why I just call the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

you check/call?

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Donk/call river. His range is biased towards hands that beat you and complete bluffs when he bets in position here so a c/r is extremely marginal if not -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

oink (et al),

this was my first thought as well, but if we donk, what is he raising with that we beat? some crazy AQ?

all,

folding the turn and c/ring the river both suck.

[OrigamiSensei]

Tyler, if he raises we're getting almost 10:1 on our call to beat AQ or tie with AK. There's also some metagame involved in not letting people see you folding big pots on the river for one bet. I do very much agree with your implied point that the river bluff-raise is a lot rarer than people think at the micros so you'll note I'm not factoring in a bluff as a reason to bet/call the river.

[OrigamiSensei]

[ QUOTE ]
BWT is the situation change when Q falls instead J falls at turn? still we wanna call turn ?

[/ QUOTE ]
The queen is a much scarier card and given the action I am far more likely to fold. That's because it's very logical for villain to cold-call and run a double-barreled bluff holding AQ when the jack falls. If a queen falls instead and the same action occurs I cannot envision a sensible bluff and reverse domination becomes far more likely.