I don't wanna give this flush draw correct odds

SlamminP · #1 08-26-2007, 06:11 AM

The situation:

You have a good made hand on the flop, the board has two of the same suit, and you are certain your opponent is on a flush draw. The game is pot limit. The pot is x dollars and you have x dollars behind. Do you shove or bet a little on the flop and wait for a blank on the turn to push the rest of your stack?

Villain makes his flush 35% of the time by the river so him getting 2 to 1 odds on the flop allows him to call correctly since he will not have to call a turn bet (you are all in). Knowing that villain cannot make a mistake by calling this flop all in bet, do we wait for the turn? Waiting for the turn means making a smaller bet on the flop which gives villain even sweeter odds to call with his flush draw. However, this makes it possible to bet enough on the turn so that villain cannot call profitably anymore.

Is there a solution to this or does PL just suck?

demon102 · #2 08-26-2007, 08:49 AM

pl sucks but that more of a preference deal, both nl and pl Im betting about 2/3- 3/4 of the pot and charge them for the draw as the next card (the turn) has about a 1/5 chance of hitting, shoving is not what u wanna do if u wanna get value here

SlamminP · #3 08-26-2007, 08:49 AM

Edit: Game can be PL or NL in this scenario, it doesn't make a difference because of hero's pot sized stack on the flop.

ra]\\[dom · #4 08-26-2007, 09:08 AM

I think it's fine to push as long as you are doing same thing also with stronger hands like sets and 2 pairs where he will have worse then 35% equity.

AlexB182 · #5 08-26-2007, 12:28 PM

Bet pot both in NL and PL. Always remember: when we bet pot, he gets 2:1 odds on the flop meaning if he calls he makes a mistake, and that's exactly what we want our opponents to do, making mistakes...If turn does not bring the third flush card, bet the rest as his chances of making his flush with only one card to come have decreased a lot, so we can give him a bit better odds...

bkar824 · #6 08-26-2007, 02:24 PM

The more money that goes in when you're ahead the better.

SlamminP · #7 08-27-2007, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet pot both in NL and PL. Always remember: when we bet pot, he gets 2:1 odds on the flop meaning if he calls he makes a mistake, and that's exactly what we want our opponents to do, making mistakes...If turn does not bring the third flush card, bet the rest as his chances of making his flush with only one card to come have decreased a lot, so we can give him a bit better odds...

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the original post again.

Flups · #8 08-27-2007, 04:01 AM

Interesting question. The point being: do we stick our stack in on the flop where opp. can call without making a mistake, or do we stick most of it in on a safe turn where our equity is higher against a flushdraw? I probably wouldn't have thought about something like that while playing, but it seems logical to do the latter in order to give opp. a chance to make a mistake... The only time we can push he flop having 75% equity in the hand is with a set. Two-pair is still close to 2:1 against a flushdraw.

Also, isn't this a concept very important in Omaha (more of a drawing game)?

No1Addict · #9 08-27-2007, 05:42 AM

Check the flop. As you've described it he is at least 2:1 to make his hand so there's nothing you can do that makes calling incorrect.
What you want is to be in a position to make a significant bet on the turn so that he doesn't get the odds. Let's consider his hand: if he has just the flush draw he'll be a 4:1 dog on the turn, he is 3:1 against with one overcard and he's getting almost 2:1 with two overcards. On the average he's wrong to call a pot sized bet here.

I can't see a line where you bet both the flop and turn and don't give him odds to draw... I guess the don't call it chort stack torture for nothing.

SlamminP · #10 08-27-2007, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop. As you've described it he is at least 2:1 to make his hand so there's nothing you can do that makes calling incorrect.
What you want is to be in a position to make a significant bet on the turn so that he doesn't get the odds. Let's consider his hand: if he has just the flush draw he'll be a 4:1 dog on the turn, he is 3:1 against with one overcard and he's getting almost 2:1 with two overcards. On the average he's wrong to call a pot sized bet here.

I can't see a line where you bet both the flop and turn and don't give him odds to draw... I guess the don't call it chort stack torture for nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just sounds absurd to me. Give him a free card? Is this not the worst thing we could do in this situation?

I'm now leaning towards getting it all in on the flop because although villain won't make a mistake by calling, he is still only a 1/3 favourite to win the hand. Therefore, anything that is shoved into the pot, you win it 2/3 of the time and he loses. Villain's not making a mistake but you are still a favourite to take whatever money he puts into the pot. It's like you're both playing correctly mathematically, but you're playing even more correctly the more money you get him to shove into the pot on the flop.