NL50 - AA c/r'd on flop

[A_C_Slater]

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I get that you'd check flop to get value from pp, but what yould you do if you held AQ on K high flop. I would bet it and thats why I have to bet AK or AA hand (basicly hand that hits). How can i cbet flops that miss me and check flops that I hit?

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If I had AQ I would CB and if I am played back at I can confidently fold. You are assuming to much when you think villian will think "hmmm last time we were heads up on a big card/two small rag flop he checked behind with AA for pot control. But this time he is betting! That must mean he whiffed and is just trying to take it down right now because if he has something he would have checked. Time to check/raise him out of his seat with my fours!!"


And this assumes you are in a pot vs a regular. This is just a random unknown. People do not get fancy at full ring. You CAN take obvious bet when I miss on ragged flops/ check behind when I hit lines because THEY DO NOT PAY THAT CLOSE ATTENTION NOR DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF POT CONTROL. At least most don't. And I wasn't yelling that was merely emphasis.

Of course on the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or other coordinated flops I am checking behind AQ as well so even if they do pay attention they will notice I am not always betting when I whiff. Almost all opponents at 50 NL do not understand flop texture. And the ones that do are too busy 8 tabling to get out of line vs you.

And of course, I'm betting flops that I hit hard, sets, two pair, flush draw with over/overs, pair with flush draw, str8 with overs, and naked str8 and flush draws for balance. So it should not be apparent to them that you simply betting when you miss and checking when you hit.

[threads13]

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"alternatively, on the flop villain checks, we bet villain calls. villain checks turn, we check behind. then on the river we either bet when checked to or we call villain's bet. this line is completely standard-- flop cbet, check turn for pot control, value bet river."

But in this scenario the pot is already bigger by the turn. And since the pot is bigger going into the turn it now makes a possible donk bet by villian all the more perplexing. So if both lines offer pot control then why is betting flop such a big deal?

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Good question.

I don't think checking behind on this flop is terrible, as many have claimed. I think it is a player dependent thing, but I would tend to bet it against an unknown.

To answer your question, generally speaking, I think betting this flop will generally give us better options down the road.

For example, you might get an opponent to call with some hands here that he will not call with on the turn. He may have some sort of hand that is willing to call the flop MPWK+BDFD, but not call on the turn. Yes, they may now choose to bluff the turn instead, but opponents are generally more likely to call incorrectly than to bluff incorrectly.

Scare cards can sometimes come on the turn, although on this specific board there are only a couple scare cards. Also, it allows us the option to still build a big pot if we are to spike a set later in the hand.

These are very general things, but I think this is generally why this flop should be bet.

[tarheeljks]

let me just clarify something: are you saying you want to check the flop b/c the hand is easier to play on the turn since the pot is small?

[A_C_Slater]

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let me just clarify something: are you saying you want to check the flop b/c the hand is easier to play on the turn since the pot is small?

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Yeah, pretty much. Take the way this hand played out. Villian could have unwittingly outplayed us with top pair here. He may think he has the best hand and so he plays it strongly. But to us it would be spewing with KQ/KJ.

[Roger Mainfield]

I want to mention that I agree with what threads12 has said, he can verbalize things better than me. Especially about villians being more likely to call incorrectly than to bluff incorrectly. By betting you give your opponents a chance to make a mistake, and it is much more likely that they will make a mistake by calling than to go very aggro and bluff us off the best hand. I check here sometimes too, but agaisn't regulars who's game I know, I don't think there is a good enough argument to do it to unknowns.

[tarheeljks]

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let me just clarify something: are you saying you want to check the flop b/c the hand is easier to play on the turn since the pot is small?

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Yeah, pretty much. Take the way this hand played out. Villian could have unwittingly outplayed us with top pair here. He may think he has the best hand and so he plays it strongly. But to us it would be spewing with KQ/KJ.

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if villain is getting out of line w/top pair here it will become readily apparent and he will be shipping us his money shortly. make a note and move on.

[threads13]

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I want to mention that I agree with what threads12 has said, he can verbalize things better than me. Especially about villians being more likely to call incorrectly than to bluff incorrectly. By betting you give your opponents a chance to make a mistake, and it is much more likely that they will make a mistake by calling than to go very aggro and bluff us off the best hand. I check here sometimes too, but agaisn't regulars who's game I know, I don't think there is a good enough argument to do it to unknowns.

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I am 13.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[A_C_Slater]

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let me just clarify something: are you saying you want to check the flop b/c the hand is easier to play on the turn since the pot is small?

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Yeah, pretty much. Take the way this hand played out. Villian could have unwittingly outplayed us with top pair here. He may think he has the best hand and so he plays it strongly. But to us it would be spewing with KQ/KJ.

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if villain is getting out of line w/top pair here it will become readily apparent and he will be shipping us his money shortly. make a note and move on.

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How can we make a note and move on when we folded the turn? We don't know he had top pair.

[tarheeljks]

no we will never know what he has that one hand (you could just ask). just make a note that he c/r'ed you on a dry K high flop. this is a scenario we'll see fairly frequently-- overpair facing aggression on a dry board. if we pay attention to what else he does at the table, and to what he shows down, we should be able to discern the caliber of hand he needs to make a play. if he did it w/KQ here, he will probably do something similar later.