Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question

[The4Aces]

lets all just do nothing and have the gov do everything for us.

[kyleb]

Tupacia,

You are confusing rights with liberties. Healthcare must be paid out of the pockets of Americans, which is a "right." The freedom of speech protects the public against persecution from the government, which is a liberty.

[odellthurman]

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Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

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Are you an American? this may be where the confusion comes in (Im not being snide, Im serious). Freedom of speech is a right, because it is in teh constitution as a right. Free Healthcare is not a right granted by teh constitution, so I can prove it. If there was a vote, and the constitution was amended than things would be different and I would defer to teh will of the people, but as of right now, its not.

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I disagree with your analysis. The Supreme Court could decide next year that healthcare is a right contemplated in the Constitution. You could disagree with it, but you would be out of luck. The Constitution does not address every issue known to man in plain terms.

Example - Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibited by the Constitution? Some judges say no, and some judges say yes. As it stands now, the Supreme Court majority says no, but that could change, without a change in the Constitution.

We should all be suspicious of people who argue that their opinions are 100% right, above any debate whatsoever.

[Emperor]

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Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

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Are you an American? this may be where the confusion comes in (Im not being snide, Im serious). Freedom of speech is a right, because it is in teh constitution as a right. Free Healthcare is not a right granted by teh constitution, so I can prove it. If there was a vote, and the constitution was amended than things would be different and I would defer to teh will of the people, but as of right now, its not.

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I disagree with your analysis. The Supreme Court could decide next year that healthcare is a right contemplated in the Constitution. You could disagree with it, but you would be out of luck. The Constitution does not address every issue known to man in plain terms.

Example - Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibited by the Constitution? Some judges say no, and some judges say yes. As it stands now, the Supreme Court majority says no, but that could change, without a change in the Constitution.

We should all be suspicious of people who argue that their opinions are 100% right, above any debate whatsoever.

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I disagree with your analysis. The Supreme Court could decide next year that healthcare is a right contemplated in the Constitution, however they would be severely overstepping their authority. Disagreement could come in many forms. Congressional intervention, Militia uprising, etc. The Constitution does not address every issue known to man in plain terms for a reason, the writers intended for communities and state governments to address all of those issues. The State governors at the time even went out of their way to clarify by insisting on the Bill of Rights, specifically the 10th amendment, before ratifying the constitution.

Example - Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibited by the Constitution? Some judges say no, and some judges say yes. However, in reality the judges shouldn't even be contemplating this issue, because the Constitution is very clear. Death for treason is appropriate. All other situations are to be left to the steates.

We should all be suspicious of people who intend to undo the document that is the fabric of our government and society.

[John Spartan]

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Example - Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibited by the Constitution? Some judges say no, and some judges say yes. As it stands now, the Supreme Court majority says no, but that could change, without a change in the Constitution.

We should all be suspicious of people who argue that their opinions are 100% right, above any debate whatsoever.

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In 1972, the Supreme Court held that the death penalty was unconstitutional. In 1976, they looked at the same death penalty and decided that it was, in fact, constitutional.

Ironic that people are so opposed to the legislature passing a law. In fact, some of the same right-wingers that oppose activist judges would want the Supreme Court to rule a universal health care plan passed by our Congress unconstitutional.

[guids]

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Example - Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibited by the Constitution? Some judges say no, and some judges say yes. As it stands now, the Supreme Court majority says no, but that could change, without a change in the Constitution.

We should all be suspicious of people who argue that their opinions are 100% right, above any debate whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

In 1972, the Supreme Court held that the death penalty was unconstitutional. In 1976, they looked at the same death penalty and decided that it was, in fact, constitutional.

Ironic that people are so opposed to the legislature passing a law. In fact, some of the same right-wingers that oppose activist judges would want the Supreme Court to rule a universal health care plan passed by our Congress unconstitutional.

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Its called checks and balances, neither congress or the supreme court should have the power to do what is being proposed my moore. The people should, I dont understand how you can debate when you have such a lack of fundamental understanding of what our founding fathers intentioned for this country.

[DrunkHamster]

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18,000 die each year from lack of health insurance. I posted it before and the only response I got was a lame one from Emperoer who said that they deserved their fate.

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FWIW I'm English, and I've seen figures along the lines that there are between 15 000 and 48 000 avoidable deaths in the UK every year; avoidable in the sense that if the NHS (the most heavily state run health care system in Europe) were up to even average standards of European care they would not have occurred.[I can post exact figures and sources if you like, they're in a book I don't have to hand at the moment.]

Extrapolate that to a country 5 times the size and suddenly 18 000 dead because they don't have insurance doesn't look so bad.

[guids]

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18,000 die each year from lack of health insurance. I posted it before and the only response I got was a lame one from Emperoer who said that they deserved their fate.

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FWIW I'm English, and I've seen figures along the lines that there are between 15 000 and 48 000 avoidable deaths in the UK every year; avoidable in the sense that if the NHS (the most heavily state run health care system in Europe) were up to even average standards of European care they would not have occurred.[I can post exact figures and sources if you like, they're in a book I don't have to hand at the moment.]

Extrapolate that to a country 5 times the size and suddenly 18 000 dead because they don't have insurance doesn't look so bad.

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Ya... I cant understand that lack of logic, no one but a troll is that stupid. 18k dying from lack of health insurance, compared to 15k dying from EXPOSURE alone, just goes to support non-socialized health care. And thats not even taking into account the fact that the US has about 300 million people in it, while france only has 64 mill.

[owsley]

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js,

what makes you think a universal healthcare system is anywhere close to feasible? as a country we cant afford to pay for it, especially because such a program will lack the economic incentives to be as efficient as possible which a free market system will have. and 80% of americans or whatever might support universal healthcare as an idea, but when it comes time to pay for it that will change.

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Is there a reason why people always tend to choose to respond to all of the poorly thought out reactionary posts against health care but the non-insulting and non inflammatory ones get ignored? I think I raised a bunch of good points but no one seems interested in talking about them.... I guess I should call more people stupid bitches or something.

[guids]

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js,

what makes you think a universal healthcare system is anywhere close to feasible? as a country we cant afford to pay for it, especially because such a program will lack the economic incentives to be as efficient as possible which a free market system will have. and 80% of americans or whatever might support universal healthcare as an idea, but when it comes time to pay for it that will change.

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Is there a reason why people always tend to choose to respond to all of the poorly thought out reactionary posts against health care but the non-insulting and non inflammatory ones get ignored? I think I raised a bunch of good points but no one seems interested in talking about them.... I guess I should call more people stupid bitches or something.

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you are debating a bunch of people who agree with Micheal Moore, whaddya expect?