Stars 50K Guaranteed - The Dreaded Min Raise - Page 2

23Suited · #11 11-12-2007, 01:14 AM

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I disagree slightly. We don't really know what kind of player this is. Is this a loose-aggressive passive, a loose-passive aggressive, loose-aggressive aggressive, or loose-passive, passive? See where I'm going with this? If OP has been playing a while with him, what are the reads postflop? And playing 50% and limp calling raises, imo, isn't very passive.

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I agree with this... you havent logged enough hands to convince me otherwise... and as I pointed out earlier this creates all sorts of post flop problems for you to smooth call preflop... many times where you are folding the best hand post flop... Im not sure what you think his exact range is here but if it is AA or KK I assume the value/EV you are refering to is implied odds vs stacking him in an attempt to set mine???... which means you fold to often while ahead... and if you dont then you are probably commiting too much money while behind to find out you are indeed beat... you just have no idea where you stand... I like folding better then calling if you are going to play this nitty and you lack the discipline/experience needed to play this corretly post-flop...

erc007 · #12 11-12-2007, 02:00 AM

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I like folding better then calling if you are going to play this nitty and you lack the discipline/experience needed to play this corretly post-flop...

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el oh el

One point that u seem to be missing is the size of the raise is not nearly as important/significant/relevant as the fact that this guy is playing 50/0 and has raised from EP.

yNnOs · #13 11-12-2007, 02:12 AM

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I like folding better then calling if you are going to play this nitty and you lack the discipline/experience needed to play this corretly post-flop...

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el oh el

One point that u seem to be missing is the size of the raise is not nearly as important/significant/relevant as the fact that this guy is playing 50/0 and has raised from EP.

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I think you're overestimating the significance of this "fact" of 50/0. We don't know how many hands this is over. Also, OP says he's played "a while" with villain, which confuses me a bit; maybe I'm being a nit, but he didn't say the entire tournament. Furthermore, there are no reads about postflop play, which seems odd for a guy playing 50% of hands.

erc007 · #14 11-12-2007, 02:26 AM

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I like folding better then calling if you are going to play this nitty and you lack the discipline/experience needed to play this corretly post-flop...

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el oh el

One point that u seem to be missing is the size of the raise is not nearly as important/significant/relevant as the fact that this guy is playing 50/0 and has raised from EP.

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I think you're overestimating the significance of this "fact" of 50/0. We don't know how many hands this is over. Also, OP says he's played "a while" with villain, which confuses me a bit; maybe I'm being a nit, but he didn't say the entire tournament. Furthermore, there are no reads about postflop play, which seems odd for a guy playing 50% of hands.

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My apologies for not referring to/submitting a statistically relevant sample size...IMO u don't have to observe certain players for all that long b/c if they're weak, they follow (and rarely deviate from) very predicatble patterns. Not adjusting to your opponent's repeated actions or behaviors (ie:reads) and reverting to ABC assumptions will hurt your EV in the long run.

yNnOs · #15 11-12-2007, 02:47 AM

I can see both plays, call or re-raise, given enough information. Only OP was there, and only OP knows how significant the information was. Seeing as how 50% of hands, and never raising was significant enough for him to factor in, I think he already knew where he was "directing" the advice. However, I only thought it worth mentioning that villain not raising in 30 hands is far less threatening than 100 hands.

23Suited · #16 11-12-2007, 02:54 AM

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So if we've seen 20 hands with villain, and he's played 10

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I will help you out a little here... assuming you played 20 hands with this villain (roughly 2 orbits) Depending where your villian was seated at this table that means you have seen him play ~4-5 hands in EP (2 UTG and 2 UTG+1 and maybe another depending on his seating when you sat down at his table)... which means he mini-raises in EP 20-25% of the time... Hardly AA or KK... you are putting way too much stock in what is highly likely to be giving your opponent far too much credit... this will be my last post on this topic though here because I think people are begining to get a little mad...

JARID · #17 11-12-2007, 03:05 AM

Wow, some of the advice in this thread is pretty bad. A huge % of the hands posted on this board have no reads on players, but people still manage to dole out advice like its gospel.

OP actually gave a pretty specific read on this villian. He's loose-passive, calls all raises and doesn't raise himself. At the 200 level can we see into soul with this read? Of course not, but wtf, that is plenty of time to gather good information.

So...our losse passive, non raising villian puts in a raise from ep. Min raise or not, at this point this is a reasonably tight range. Just call.

If villian had less chips or more chips I could see merit in a three bet, but raising to 1200 or whatever and folding for 3-4k more is so bleh. For those saying he only pushs KK-AA...he does what with TT,QQ and AQ-AK exactly?

Jarid

erc007 · #18 11-12-2007, 03:19 AM

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So if we've seen 20 hands with villain, and he's played 10, we must know how he plays. I get it, because 10 hands should be enough to gauge how he plays under the various circumstances one experiences in most hands. If he's never raised in OP's presence, what do we know about him and continuations? Can you get that from assuming he's weak?

Over-adjusting to your opponent's repeated actions, and assuming he's ALWAYS predictable will also hurt your EV. So does cold-calling min-raises with big hands every time you haven't seen someone raise before; especially when you allow them to play almost perfect and for cheap as someone mentioned I think. You're sure to win little, and lose big playing this way.

If villain has AA-QQ on a ten high flop, are you just calling a cont? You'd probably think raise, but if you think you're ahead then, why weren't you ahead pre? Now you're def losing your chips, probably more than you would've if you'd reraised to begin with.

If an A, K, or Q hits, whats your line? Call him down? A re-raise not only allows you to charge worse hands, but imo give you a bettter idea of villains range as well.

Also done here. I already know how I'd play it.

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I'm going back to grunching...i regret posting replies to this guy (my bad.) And the next time i raise from UTG...i'll look forward to u 3-betting me for information [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

yNnOs · #19 11-12-2007, 03:25 AM

You were the jerk making sarcastic apologies for not having a "statistical sample". I never questioned your thoughts personally, but you thought you'd question mine sarcastically without recourse. Aggression meets aggression, stop being a baby. BTW, it isn't my intention to ever do that and I am (honestly) sorry to any posters that shy away because of such pointless bickering.

23Suited · #20 11-12-2007, 04:09 AM

Jarid if you are still there I would very much like to discuss this further... if you have the software stove JJ against TT+, AQ, and AK... and come back with the results... you are ahead of that range... I never stated I thought 3-betting for information was a good play... however I do believe that 3-betting for value is the best option available to you (the fact that you force your opponent to give away information by taking this line just adds further value to it)... as a side note calling is not -EV but just not the best play IMO... you would need to tread carefully postflop because if you are not an experienced post flop player then you will probably get yourself into trouble far more often then you would like (most of the time costing you more then the 800 chip difference between re-raising the villian in this hand and smooth calling his 400 preflop) also you will often fold the best hand... we have been given no such read that suggests this villian is passive post flop or is uncapable of making a c-bet on the flop whether he has the best hand or not... coupled with the chance that you allow him to outdraw you when you have the best hand... the 3-bet is extremely obvious to me... any comments I made previously about AA and KK were made in regards to the times your opponent 4-bets you all in... If you believe that is his entire range for the 4-bet a fold in that spot would be rather obvious... I mean Jarid what are you re-raising with here... do you smooth call pre with AK???... is your raising range QQ+... or are you smooth calling all of the hands which likely have value against his range... obviously this player is prob not good enough to recognize a difference (considering he limps 50% of hands and he mini-raises) but isnt this exploitable on your part...