Ratholing NL08.

[Shabamabam]

What's your thoughts on these type of people who buyin for the mininum (if bust, reload for mininum) and once win leave and come back in a half an hour?

I was just curious as I've started to do it (as it's amazingly +EV [equity and diffulty wise]), but sometimes I feel like scum.

On the other hand, I love these people to come because they generate the most action because the full stacks are afraid to commit.

Thoughts?

[niss]

It sucks and ruins games for those of us who are looking to play poker?

[MattS]

[ QUOTE ]

I was just curious as I've started to do it (as it's amazingly +EV [equity and diffulty wise]), but sometimes I feel like scum.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that playing shortstacked is amazingly +EV in PLO8. Most playable hands should be to close in terms of equity preflop and you have to hit the flop in order to get a significant equity edge. But because you have to raise preflop in PL to get your chips all-in on the flop you will also face a lot of tough decisions if you miss the flop. In my opinion playing tight aggressive (VP$IP: 20%) with 1/2 buy-in should be easy to execute and more profitable.

BTW, at the lower levels where I play I don't have encountered a winning shortstacker until now.

[ThE_rEaL_gUnIt]

yea sham i tried it on fulltilt 5-10 for a while and MATT we are talking about NO LIMIT but GREAT POINT lol......i ended up like +4k in a week and a half just buying in 298 or 240 (2 whatever change i had)....i agree it IS suprising +EV and i only started losing in the game when i bought in for full....buying in short minimizes losses as well.....all in all if i were to play on fulltilt again id prlly rathol, but then again i make too much on stars to waste my time and get frusterated with it

[niss]

This is the main reason why I personally think NL O8 is a stupid game. It might be very profitable for those who know what they are doing, but I still wouldn't play it. At least in PL (a) there is an element of poker that is hard to get away from and (b) shortstacking is less optimal and, I think, much more difficult to succeed at in a significant manner, as compared to no limit games. Bodog has its share of shortstackers, and there's only one that I know who makes money at the game, and it's not like he makes a lot.

[Mendacious]

Jury is still out for me on whether it is +EV. I buy-in short because I don't have the roll to play full, and I do NOT emply a rat-hole method of leaving for a half hour and coming back. I consider that unethical. I buy-in for $300-$400 (which is about the level I have the roll to play). I agree it does make decisions considerably easier against LAGs.

[D-Grief]

[ QUOTE ]
Jury is still out for me on whether it is +EV. I buy-in short because I don't have the roll to play full, and I do NOT emply a rat-hole method of leaving for a half hour and coming back. I consider that unethical. I buy-in for $300-$400 (which is about the level I have the roll to play). I agree it does make decisions considerably easier against LAGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the same roll considerations as you, I generally do not leave after winning a pot or two and try to build up from there. That game has been one of my most profitable over the last 6 months though - I am running at about 4BB/100 over the last 6 months.

[Truthiness24]

Buying short and ratholing is unquestionably +EV in NLO8 if you know what you're doing. That's why people do it.

It's a mixed bag in PLO8 unless you're at a table full of LAGtards and can consistently get your $$ in PF.

As for "unethical," that's in the eye of the beholder. It certainly isn't illegal or against the rules. It isn't any more unethical than buying in for a million dollars in a 1/2 NL game where everyone has $100 and you just bully everyone to death.

The fact of the matter is that people who imply that it's unethical just don't like it because it cuts into their edge. If it helped you to win more money, you would never complain about "ethics."

That said, yes, this is why NLO8 is such a stupid game. But hey, if you know that it's stupid, don't play.

[phidelt799]

After reading this thread and not wanting to play any real O8 b/c I have pissed off the FTP gods, I decided to short stack some low-limit O8. The very first hand of my ratholing career...

FullTiltPoker Game #3779454720: Table Giles - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 0:08:59 ET - 2007/10/07
Seat 1: Anvemada ($34.35)
Seat 2: highiam ($28.75)
Seat 3: Pams Big Red ($14.50)
Seat 4: BombinPocketABU ($45.35)
Seat 5: Aces n Gators ($50)
Seat 6: trc812 ($58.65)
Seat 7: NEWCHAMP2DAY ($95.15)
Seat 8: phidelt799 ($10)
Seat 9: Dave_78681 ($19)
NEWCHAMP2DAY posts the small blind of $0.25
phidelt799 posts the big blind of $0.50
Aces n Gators posts $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to phidelt799 [9s 9d 6c 6h]
Dave_78681 calls $0.50
Anvemada folds
highiam folds
Pams Big Red calls $0.50
BombinPocketABU folds
Aces n Gators checks
trc812 folds
NEWCHAMP2DAY calls $0.25
phidelt799 checks
*** FLOP *** [6d Js Kh]
NEWCHAMP2DAY checks
phidelt799 bets $9.50, and is all in
Dave_78681 folds
Pams Big Red calls $9.50
Aces n Gators calls $9.50
NEWCHAMP2DAY calls $9.50
*** TURN *** [6d Js Kh] [9h]
NEWCHAMP2DAY checks
Pams Big Red checks
Aces n Gators bets $40, and is all in
NEWCHAMP2DAY folds
Pams Big Red folds
Aces n Gators shows [Ah Jd 2h As]
phidelt799 shows [9s 9d 6c 6h]
*** RIVER *** [6d Js Kh 9h] [8c]
Aces n Gators shows a pair of Aces, for high
phidelt799 shows three of a kind, Nines, for high
phidelt799 wins the pot ($38.50) with three of a kind, Nines
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $40.50 | Rake $2
Board: [6d Js Kh 9h 8c]
Seat 5: Aces n Gators showed [Ah Jd 2h As] and lost with HI: a pair of Aces
Seat 8: phidelt799 (big blind) showed [9s 9d 6c 6h] and won ($38.50) with HI: three of a kind, Nines


And my second ever ratholing hand...

FullTiltPoker Game #3779641231: Table Somerset Hills - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 0:31:12 ET - 2007/10/07
Seat 1: Ronjohn ($42.15)
Seat 2: hgoa21 ($29.35)
Seat 3: Shuffler00 ($17.30)
Seat 5: Mykul925 ($20)
Seat 6: phidelt799 ($9.50)
Seat 7: ChurchsChicken ($49.50)
Seat 8: BombinPocketABU ($79.90)
Seat 9: slick710 ($35.55)
phidelt799 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to phidelt799 [Ac 5h As Qc]
ChurchsChicken folds
BombinPocketABU calls $0.50
slick710 calls $0.50
Ronjohn folds
hgoa21 calls $0.50
Shuffler00 folds
phidelt799 raises to $9.50, and is all in
BombinPocketABU folds
slick710 calls $9
hgoa21 folds
phidelt799 shows [Ac 5h As Qc]
slick710 shows [4c Kd Th 5d]
*** FLOP *** [2c Kc 7d]
*** TURN *** [2c Kc 7d] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [2c Kc 7d Qh] [3c]
phidelt799 shows a flush, Ace high, for high andphidelt799 shows 7,5,3,2,A, for low
slick710 shows a pair of Kings, for high andslick710 shows 7,5,4,3,2, for low
phidelt799 wins the high pot ($9.50) with a flush, Ace high
phidelt799 wins the low pot ($9.50) with 7,5,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20 | Rake $1

[phidelt799]

Those of you who play NLO8 regularly, what are these people open pushing 60%-150% stacks with? Any AAxx? I have seen three different "average-stats" type players with full stacks open push.