Flat calling 3-bet with KK, right play? Stars 4/180

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is so unbelievably standard.

It is absolutely 100% NOT TRUE that any hand he is shoving will call a shove.

He might (very often) see your call as weakness (like AQ or a small-medium pair) and figure that he can get you to fold facing two-allins (which you would if you held those hands). So he is going to shove very widely figuring he has some FE against you and overlay in the pot. Little does he know that he has zero FE.

Beyond this, if you shove, you let him fold a hand that he would otherwise shove to isolate (e.g. 99). If you were in his shoes and raised a medium pair, and saw two shoves behind you, would you call? Hell no you wouldn't. And neither will he (unless he is an idiot).

So give him a chance to hang himself. Call PF and try to induce him to come along. Perfectly standard.

Sherman

PS - Now please tell us he had AA or had AK and hit an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to defer to you in this spot. However, am I crazy, or against a good thinking player doesn't a shove really look weaker? I know that if I saw one of you guys flat call here I'd be spooked way more than if I saw you shove, but maybe I'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, against players thinking on the next level, shoving does look weaker. But we are talking about a 4/180 where a guy has no idea why he decided to raise a certain amount and has no clue what he is doing. He is not thinking on a higher level. To take advantage of that, we shouldn't either. It doesn't do us any good to play at level 3 if he only thinks at level 1 (I would argue however that it does us a lot of good to think at level 3; for practice purposes). So I do think your post is good dunk, if we could reasonably expect our opponent to think that we are shoving with a weak hand to isolate, which will induce him to call with 99. However, I have a feeling our opponent will let 99 go if we re-shove here.

Sherman

FWIW, I'd be shoving in this spot with QQ. KK/AA are too strong to do so...we lose to much value.

[offmandh]

i think you played it perfect. gave him an oppotrunity to hang himself and he did. weird that an A didnt flop.

[tomek322]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think the timing of the call has an impact?

I would wait for the 15 second buzzer to hit, then flat call. The hope is it indicates you are uncertain whether to call or isolate.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL... I remember a hand long ago, where UTG shoved for like 10BB... I was UTG+1 and went into my time bank, finally called. The next guy insta shoved with Q6s. For 80BB... oops i had aces.