3-bet with QJs and flop 2 pair. and then....

[cs3]

villain is a multi-multitabler and seems like a pretty good player. solid stats of 20/16 over 500+ hands previously, and 22/17 over 300 hands on 2 of my tables this session. maybe one of you guys

hes generally a pain to play agasint when he has position becasue he floats a lot, is capable of raising air, but has had the goods everytime big money goes in and theres a showdown.

he recently started raising just about any 2 on the button, and has also been raising his SB every single time its folded to him (and im BB). ive been 3 betting him quite a bit (maybe 9-10 times in the past 80 hands or so) and hes folded all but 3 times, and 2 of those he folded the flop. i have direct position on him on the table in question.



Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $149.00
BB: $100.00
UTG: $149.95
MP: $70.70
CO: $29.80
BTN: $473.90

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q J (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $4.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $13.00</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $9.00
<font color="blue">this is meh whatever. i figure im ahead of his button opening range </font>

Flop: ($27) A Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
<font color="blue"> NIIIIICE, I LIIIKE!! right? right???
i bet the flop like 2/3 of the time that i 3bet PF. i decided to check this time because:
1) i think the only hand i get any value out of by betting this flop is exactly AK, maaaybe rarely KK.
2) deception.
3) i would have to call a shove if i bet right? but i think im almost always behind if all the money goes in on this board, esp vs this particular villain
D) i are retarded
what do you make of his check behind??</font>



Turn: ($27) 7 (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $16.00</font>, BTN calls $16.00
<font color="blue"> given flop i have to bet now right? you like the size or too small? am i calling a raise?</font>

River: ($59) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero kicks his own ass for playing the hand like this and then???


<font color="blue"> worst damn card in the entire deck... now what? hero has 110Bb's left.


how is my line so far?
awful?
ok?
brilliant?(nnnnaaaohht) </font>

[SilentNoise]

preflop:: if hes easy to play against postflop even oop, i prefer calling with QJs..but hes not, which makes me think that 3betting is better, so you can hopefully encourage him to not play a pot with you in position (maybe this is flawed thinking? since if hes hard to play against oop, then the last thing you want to do is bloat the pot oop with an easily dominted hand?)

flop:: i typically bet like 22$ or so. if he shoves its tricky though...but i think you have to fold

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.022% 32.34% 00.68% 9285 195.50 { QcJc }
Hand 1: 66.978% 66.30% 00.68% 19034 195.50 { AA, QQ-JJ, AJs+, AJo+ }


and thats assuming he shoves AK too...which seems pretty unlikely i think.

turn:: as played i bet 22$ and call a shove. i dont think he ever (or very rarely) checks two pair or better on the flop incase action killers come out. if he raises small id just shove.

river:: id probably bet/fold like $35. i dont know if thats just asking to be bluffed though? i dont think c/f'ing can be bad though. i dont think he would ever be bluffing in this situation either. because people love making big calls in 3bet pots with sets/twopair even on boards like this IME (so i think c/c is bad)

[Michaelson]

Fold preflop. QJ plays terribly OOP in a re-raised pot. Take him on the 5/6 times you have position on him, not here and not after you've 3-bet him 9-10 times in the last 80 hands. If you do decide to get frisky against him from the SB, smaller suited connectors are preferable because the reverse implied ods aren't as bad.

With all that said, as played I don't necessarily mind checking except for the obvious concern that he could take a free card, and there are 8 cards you're petrified of. Also, check raising this deep is kinda awkward because if stacks go in you're likely in trouble... I really don't know how to approach this hand on the flop, actually, it's a pretty gross spot.

Once it's checked through, however, I'm happy getting my chips in and think you should lead for pot on the turn.

River is a C/F.

[BDaws]

I normally would bet the flop, but I don't think checking is that bad. He might fire with an underpair which is great because you certainly aren't getting value from them if you bet and they have very little chances of improving.

However, there are definitely more hands than AK that you can get value from. With position, wouldn't he peel light with KQ, JT, KJ, AT? That's if he calls with them preflop which I don't know.

I would bet a little more on the turn. 18-20 works.

On the river, I think I like a b/f for 35 as SN suggested. You play is consistent with a Kx type hand so I don't think he will ever bluff raise unless he doesn't read hands well and just bluffs wildy.

So the times he has Kx, you lose 35.
The times he doesn't you win the pot, but never get called by a worse hand.

I think this is better than c/c because he will likely bet more than 35 if he has a K (so you are losing more when he has a K than if you would've just b/f $35), and will certainly put you to some tough decisions because we don't know his bluffing frequencies that well.

[BombayBadboy]

Haven't you learend from this epci thread?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6267939 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'd c/f the river.

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]

So the times he has Kx, AA, QQ, JJ, TT, 77, AQ, AJ, AT, you lose 35.
The times he doesn't you win the pot, but never get called by a worse hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

The blocking bet has its merits, but the only value in it is that it protects us from being bluffed. If I'm hero, on this river, I expect to have the best hand very rarely.

More generally though, it's an interesting idea. If we assume that A) Facing a bet, villain will fold all his losers and call or raise with all his winners.
B) When checked to villain will bet his lock hands and sometimes bluff his losing hands and that we won't be able to call a sizable bet.
When, if ever, is it proper to bet?

[SilentNoise]

wow nice thread bombaybadboy thanks for linking. just read whitelime's first response

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, I agree with you that I'd rather reraise the smaller suited conn's than QJs, but I don't think it's that big of a difference. I would definitely rather reraise QJs than junk like 72o or J5o.

[/ QUOTE ]

i typically agree with that. but i might change my mind after reading that thread. alot of good posters have contributed to that thread WITH ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS!(something rare nowadays)

thx alot forposting thatlink

[Montezuma21]

[ QUOTE ]
wow nice thread bombaybadboy thanks for linking. just read whitelime's first response

[ QUOTE ]
In the end, I agree with you that I'd rather reraise the smaller suited conn's than QJs, but I don't think it's that big of a difference. I would definitely rather reraise QJs than junk like 72o or J5o.

[/ QUOTE ]

i typically agree with that. but i might change my mind after reading that thread. alot of good posters have contributed to that thread WITH ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS!(something rare nowadays)

thx alot forposting thatlink

[/ QUOTE ]

As soon as i saw OP's post this thread sprang to mind. tx for linking.

[BDaws]

[ QUOTE ]

So the times he has Kx, AA, QQ, JJ, TT, 77, AQ, AJ, AT, you lose 35.
The times he doesn't you win the pot, but never get called by a worse hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for attempting to fix my post because AT,TT are good additions to better hands that are going to call our block bet, but seriously AA, QQ, JJ, 77, AQ, AJ are...lol.

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So the times he has Kx, AA, QQ, JJ, TT, 77, AQ, AJ, AT, you lose 35.
The times he doesn't you win the pot, but never get called by a worse hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for attempting to fix my post because AT,TT are good additions to better hands that are going to call our block bet, but seriously AA, QQ, JJ, 77, AQ, AJ are...lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume your point is that those hands aren't in his range because they make noise earlier in the hand, which is fine. As I said in my original reply, I'm happy felting this hand on the turn. My point, though, is that every hand that beats us calls the block bet, and I'm not sure we beat 50% of his range...