Do you ask yourself why they folded? $60 challenge... - Page 3

milesdyson · #21 08-31-2006, 02:59 PM

spydog, your original post is confusing because your first sentence says

"Hero takes an aggressive line with a made hand and caused villian(s) to fold before the river."

THEN you go on to explain what you want.

JerseyTom · #22 08-31-2006, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
spydog, your original post is confusing because your first sentence says

"Hero takes an aggressive line with a made hand and caused villian(s) to fold before the river."

THEN you go on to explain what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that... and I don't read so good anyways...

I'm at work now; I'm sure I have some better examples at home.

Tom

Fiddler · #23 08-31-2006, 03:10 PM

I think I played it good until the turn 3-bet. I check-raised the flop just so he would pop me on the turn with an overpair but when I 3-bet, especially after the king hit, then the cat is out of the bag if he has stats on me.

I think I should have called the turn raise and, against this specific player, then check-raised the river. I don't believe he would have raised me if I had lead out again.

Edit: Or rather, I believe he will almost always bet the river when he pops me on the king turn but I think I'm in better shape if I can get 2-3BB in on the river than if I get 3-4BB in.

JerseyTom · #24 08-31-2006, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really that hard to come up with some examples or is the original post too complicated?

[/ QUOTE ]
The original wording might not have been the best. Basically you want hands when villain bet/raised and then folded the same street (before the river) in the face of Hero's continued aggression. I should have read some of the otehr posts more carefully (where you explained why they didn't qualify). I have my full PT database at home; I'm sure I can find a ton of examples.

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has ever raised a donkbet HU and made villian fold? Nobody has ever 3-bet villian's flop CR or raise and folded him? Do these things only happen to me? Am I the only person that wonders why people fold, especially when I want them to call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder this all the time; I think this is a great post/thread. Thing is, many times when we raise these leads, we actually want them to fold, so there is still some gray area in your description(s).

So if you are primarily looking for hands where we're value-betting and want a call, then this hand probably doesn't match your criteria either (i.e. Villain is a known donker, I suspect I'm best at the moment but vulnerable, I am not begging for a call, and maybe can fold out hands like 77-44):

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: 3.25BB

Spy Dog · #25 08-31-2006, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is very, very, very, very tight. Maybe he has just switched over from full ring or something because his VP$IP is 15% over more than 400 hands. If he has any sort of sane read on me then the 3-bet after the king hits kinda gives at least trip tens away.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I played it good until the turn 3-bet. I check-raised the flop just so he would pop me on the turn with an overpair but when I 3-bet, especially after the king hit, then the cat is out of the bag if he has stats on me.

I think I should have called the turn raise and, against this specific player, then check-raised the river. I don't believe he would have raised me if I had lead out again.

Edit: Or rather, I believe he will almost always bet the river when he pops me on the king turn but I think I'm in better shape if I can get 2-3BB in on the river than if I get 3-4BB in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand is a good example because 3-betting this turn is so reflexive. 99.9% of us 3-bet this without much thought (me included most of the time). However, when we analyze the action and read we can safely say that villian almost never has 55 or Tx based on the preflop action. So, when he raises we can put him on AK or AA a very very high percentage of the time. If we call his turn raise he will bet the river almost 100% of the time with this hand and generally pay off your river CR. We make 4 BBs. If we 3-bet the turn he will sometimes fold and sometimes call down, but never cap with those hands unless he's tilting. We make less than 4 BBs when we 3-bet.

I wouldn't call this hand a common situation but it isn't that rare, either.

Quester · #26 08-31-2006, 04:03 PM

Only 1 hand in my DB that gets close:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Villain calls, MP calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, Villain calls, MP folds.

Flop: (9 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB folds, Villain checks, Hero bets, SB folds, Villain calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Peter Harris · #27 08-31-2006, 04:03 PM

Here be a peach. Villain is a crappy tag, 21/16/1.7 over 350 hands.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Pete is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Pete raises, BB 3-bets, Pete calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
Pete checks, BB bets, Pete raises, BB 3-bets, Pete calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
Pete checks, BB bets, Pete raises, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Pete.

Results:
Final pot: 8BB

Spy Dog · #28 08-31-2006, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB folds......

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an OK example and a common situation. I'm actually looking for hands where you didn't really want them to fold. In this hand you actually want them to fold when you raise because you are generally behind when he calls your raise. But it does make you wonder if calling is more EV than raising, which is basically the whole idea behind this thread.

Peter Harris · #29 08-31-2006, 04:06 PM

Villain 41/16/1.7 over 73 hands.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $96
CO: $150
Button: $37
Pete: $266.50
BB: $108.50

Pre-flop: (5 players) Pete is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls, Pete raises, BB folds, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7SB, 3 players)
Pete bets, UTG raises, Button folds, Pete calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.5BB, 2 players)
Pete checks, UTG bets, Pete raises, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Pete.

Results:
Final pot: 7.5BB

Spy Dog · #30 08-31-2006, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only 1 hand in my DB that gets close:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Villain calls, MP calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, Villain calls, MP folds.

Flop: (9 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB folds, Villain checks, Hero bets, SB folds, Villain calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand would qualify if you held KQ and he folded to your 3-bet. It doesn't make sense when you are happy when folds.

I want hands where their fold made you unhappy.