M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[Split Suit]

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It's certainly true that if you stop at shortstacking, you are stunting your growth as a player, but if you take it seriously and follow the math, it will lead you to conclusions about poker in general which lead you to a better all around game.I am pretty much focused on shortstacking currently, because it allows me to multitable virtually without table limit, eke out a small profit, rake in tons of FPPs, all while watching TV, and certainly not working a hump job.

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your name says it all. But here is some more deep down truth. If you truly understand all that you type here, you could be making much more playing a fullstack if your BR is not an issue.

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I highlighted the part you seemed to miss.

If he's playing 10 tables at a time, then he's seeing 300 hands an hour. Doesn't take long to make Super Nova that way if poker is his full time job. And he's probably playing more than 10 tables at a time.

In all probability rake back & bonuses make up the majority of his income. The 2bb/hr just maintains his BR.

Oh, did I just give away one of the Illuminati's major "secrets?" [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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10tables shud b about 645hands/hr

[MyTurn2Raise]

ummmm....I do about twice that many hands per hour

[illini43]

JUICE

[MyTurn2Raise]

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I don't know maybe I'm wrong and MT2R posting information will destroy the game, but the game will eventually evolve anyway.

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agreed--the game will evolve anyway
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A short stacker replacing a rock really doesnt make much difference in the greater scheme of things.

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MDMA once posted well about how ss'ers are different from rocks
here is what he said:
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comparing shortstacking to being a supertight rock is really, really retarded. Shortstacking ABUSES A INCOMPABILITY OF FULLSTACKED AND SHORTSTACKED POKER AND THE TWO DIFFERENT OPTIMAL RANGES IN THESE. Not surprisingly, this of course only hurts the fullstack and not the shortstack, since only the fullstack has to actually care about two ranges. A nit-rock however, does nothing of the kind, and will LOSE in the end if you just play better than him.

Shortstacking is ultimately better than ANY OTHER FORM OF PLAYING BECAUSE OF AN INHERENT FLAW IN PLAYING TWO DIFFERENT STACK SIZES AT THE SAME TIME AT THE SAME TABLE.

You shortstackers never ever mention this, you use words as "legal", "different way of playing" etc, but what you not realize is that it is not your SKILL that wins you money in the games, it is the fact that shortstacks has a big inherent advantage that IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME IN TODAYS SYSTEM.

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[NT=TOOLBOX]

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Personally I wouldn't mind if a table was all short stackers bar me, you could just run them over.

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Laugh Out Loud. Seriously.

This biggest no-limit hold 'em myth: big stacks can "bully" the table.

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LOL I remember playing live 2/5 with a $1500 after cleaning a couple donkeys out when some dude walks by and sits down and says"o we have a chip leader guys, hes gonna try and push us around now".... I find that the biggest struggle for me playing live is to keep my laughter to a minimum when people talk at the table =)

[NT=TOOLBOX]

o yeah a couple points to be made.

1. i hate shortstackers but respect them
2. if the game gets over run we will basically have a table selection war where full stack players will imediately leave talbes with to many shortstackers eventually leading to tables full of shortstackers where they have no edgy over each other and the rake-rakeback will barely worth their time.
3. a sight could make 40bb min where only full stack players will play.
4. 6 max will become more popular becuase its much easier to hop around on tables and avoid shorstackers (thats what i do i hate 6 max ssers)


I do wanna say that ss'ers who currently make money... im sorry that you suck at poker but please dont ruin the good thing you have now by trying normalize and expand your "STYLE". It will only end in your demise. that is all.

[MyTurn2Raise]

ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

[GiantBuddha]

But the blinds will eat you alive! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[diebitter]

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ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

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This makes my head explode. I cannot for the life of me figure out how you can SS 6-max profitably - them psychos won't be lying back and taking it, and surely they figure out the plays pretty damn quick.... Or I guess it could be such that, EVEN IF THEY KNEW YOUR PLAYS/RANGES, THEY STILL COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? Am I getting warm?


I think I'm focussed way too much on a Miller-type approach, when in fact there's some sort of optimal/game-theory approach.

[phydaux]

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ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

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Really? I would think that, with the blinds coming around so frequently, it would eat up your winnings.

Hmm... Let's see... What would make MT2R say that shorting at 6-max is more profitable...

Shortstacking is a game of hand range vs hand range and denying implied odds. Full stack 6-max is all about position and aggression. Loose & aggressive opponents play a wider range of hands. The shortie, then, could open up his range and still have an equity advantage. (I guess this is where Pokerstove comes in handy.)

Plus, the shortie doesn't fear aggression. When he enters a pot, he intends to get all in. 3-bet him pre-flop? He just shoves. Re-raise his c-bet? He just shoves. You can't "play chicken" with him.

Interesting. I've always told people in the Beginner forum to short stack at FR. I'll have to tell them to go annoy the 6-max players from now on.

Personally, I find the 6-max snobs far more annoying than short stackers. They deserve more shorties at their tables, IMO.

So, what are likely ranges, broken down by position, for 6-max players to be raising with? From there, it shouldn't be too hard to use Poker Stove and come up with a range of hands that has positive all-in equity.

Here's a little jump off point for the people who are arsed to do the math - I have a buddy who's a full time 6-max pro and has his own blog/strategy site. He wrote this cool article a few months ago:

Pillaging Short-Handed 6-max No Limit

If we use his starting hand ranges, then what are some positive equity hand ranges to play back with?