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#11
09-13-2007, 12:36 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] (and lest you try and roll out Hitler, he wasn't elected). [/ QUOTE ] Sure he was elected, in the same sense that any parliamentary leader who gains his position with the support of a coalition of parties is elected. The fact that he went on to out-manipulate his coalition supporters to gain even more power doesn't change the fact that he originally attained the position of Chancellor through democratic means. Of course, actors in both AC and statist scenarios can be and sometimes will be psychotic and evil. The AC scenario would be worse when this happens because there won't be any other outside states to reign in the evil character. [/ QUOTE ]<font color="red">He was appointed Chancellor not elected. The National Socialist Party that appointed him never received more than 37% of the vote. In the elections immediately preceeding his appointment the NSP lost seats and votes vs the prior election. He was only appointed because of the threats of violence from his thugs. That is hardly a democratic process. </font> [/ QUOTE ] Do you not understand coalition run goverments? Even when no party receives a majority of the votes, the eventual prime minister or chancellor still is an elected leader. He was appointed chancellor with the support of a coalition of parties. Papen, his coalition partner, thought he could control him, but he was wrong. Definitely qualifies as the elected leader of the government by any standard. [/ QUOTE ] Yes I understand them. Hitler is an example of the breakdown of a coalition system. There was no majority coalition. Papen was fired, von Schleicher (sp?) quit, Hindenburg appointed Hitler only to avoid violence from Hitlers minority. It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] You're sizzlin today [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. 
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#12
09-13-2007, 12:42 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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Any time you need quick reaction to a new, threatening situation, a state is likely to be more responsive. [/ QUOTE ] I guess that depends on how you classify "responsive". States will certainly talk a lot very quickly. I'm not convinced that they really take action that quickly if there is no transparent gain to them.
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#13
09-13-2007, 12:46 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, actually, it is.
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#14
09-13-2007, 12:48 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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[ QUOTE ] It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, actually, it is. [/ QUOTE ] How so? Population elects Person A as president, Person A gives the position to Person B with no election. Thats not democracy.
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#15
09-13-2007, 01:15 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, actually, it is. [/ QUOTE ] How so? Population elects Person A as president, Person A gives the position to Person B with no election. Thats not democracy. [/ QUOTE ] Hindenburg was the duly elected president, and he had the right to appoint Hitler as chancellor. Completely democratic and constitutional. Why are we afraid to admit that bad people can get into power through democratic means? Bad people would get into power through AC too.
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#16
09-13-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, actually, it is. [/ QUOTE ] How so? Population elects Person A as president, Person A gives the position to Person B with no election. Thats not democracy. [/ QUOTE ] Hindenburg was the duly elected president, and he had the right to appoint Hitler as chancellor. Completely democratic and constitutional. Why are we afraid to admit that bad people can get into power through democratic means? Bad people would get into power through AC too. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not - I asked specifically about the situation proposed by Copernicus. To my knowledge, the president isn't supposed to decide that the Secretary of D should be president instead and step down.
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#17
09-13-2007, 01:43 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, actually, it is. [/ QUOTE ] How so? Population elects Person A as president, Person A gives the position to Person B with no election. Thats not democracy. [/ QUOTE ] If you only go as far as you stated, it is still democracy. Appointments are made all the time, not all posts are elected. The step that needs to be taken for it to be non-democratic is for the appointment to be made under threat of reprisal against the citizenry.
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#18
09-13-2007, 03:09 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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If you only go as far as you stated, it is still democracy. Appointments are made all the time, not all posts are elected. The step that needs to be taken for it to be non-democratic is for the appointment to be made under threat of reprisal against the citizenry. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. If an office is an elected office, if the elected official hands over the office to someone else without an election that's not democracy.
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#19
09-13-2007, 03:13 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
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<font color="red">so they steal it </font> <font color="red">so they counterfeit it or steal it </font> <font color="red"> so they steal the differential </font> <font color="red">rofl. back to utopia. or they steal them </font> [/ QUOTE ] All valid objections, but how does this draw any contrast with life under the state? Under which scenario would it be easier to steal--as a lone corporation or as an established centralized government? The AC argument as I understand it is that AC is preferable, not perfect, so anything that is equally bad under statism is moot. I can see it being much more difficult for a private individual running a private company to seize power than an individual member of the state with the coercive apparatus already in place. George Bush is more likely to seize dictatorial power than Warren Buffett.
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#20
09-13-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: AC Scenario
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you only go as far as you stated, it is still democracy. Appointments are made all the time, not all posts are elected. The step that needs to be taken for it to be non-democratic is for the appointment to be made under threat of reprisal against the citizenry. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. If an office is an elected office, if the elected official hands over the office to someone else without an election that's not democracy. [/ QUOTE ] So, democracy isn't magically immune to thugs taking over? I keep hearing how we need things like "democracy" and magical pieces of paper to prevent this stuff from happening, yet it happened anyway? Something isn't adding up.
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