NYC poker: safety and legalization

[AngusThermopyle]

So if NYC clubs are so safe, why the thread?
If there is no problem with robberies, how can you use that as an argument to legalize the clubs?

[psandman]

It doesn't matter where you are. the issue remains the same. Do the operator risk legal problems by calling the police AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER AFTER a robbery in which no one was hurt.

Some might, but it is not as clear cut as the instances you cite of police being called during a robbery or fight.

As for your contnetion that these robberies are rare, even if I assume you are that tied in to the entirety of the NYC poker scene that you can state that there have only been two robberies in 2007 (of course I would be inclines to include robberies of players coming to or leaving the game -- at least those happening say just outside, and that would probably account for more such events), two robberies in 10 monthes isn't that insignificant when you take into account these are 7-11's with a store open 24/7 on every street corner.

Follow how we have gotten to this debate . . . It all stems from your objecting to someone making this statement:

[ QUOTE ]
I know some club owners won't report a robbery because they don't want the police to know of their location.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back to that statement and tell me why you so unequivocally object to it, knowing that it it encompasses many different sceanrios not just the scenario of a club owner calling the police to stop a violent crime in progress.... because thats what this little subthread is about and its silly for us to argue about the amount of robberies in NY card clubs since thats not really the thing we really disagree about.

[psandman]

You know what rather than argue these arcane points would you at least agree with the following statement:

One reason that an underground game is an attractive target to criminals is that they perceive that due to the illegal nature of the operation there is less risk of their crime being reported to the police.

[jauntyjoker]

I am a former poker dealer/floor manager that worked for the last four years at a spot in Bkln. Last Nov (06) we were robbed on a Sun night/Mon morning. Four hooded gunmen with automatic weapons stormed the place. Luckily, we saw them outside on the cameras and everyone got out with only some scrapes and bruises from jumping tall walls and fences on the hasty exit.

After everyone got out, I immediately called 911 and reported the incident. Not only for the safety of our players and staff, but the building had residential apartments with families with children in it, and who knows if they would rampage the building after running through an empty club.
NYPD showed up not long after and the uniforms and detectives laughed at and berated us for calling them. But our main concern was everyone's safety.
We were not arrested but eight of us (players and alleged staff) were taken by NYPD van to the local precinct where we were badgered and berated and questioned about everything BUT the robbery (well, a little about the robbery). In the end the last two guys questioned were cuffed and spent the next 20 hours in Bkln Central, charged with promotion of gambling. For calling in a robbery. There was no money, thus no proof of the charge, but that didn't matter.

So, yes, we do risk arrest for calling the police.
And, yes, this is an actual example of a club calling the police after a robbery where everyone got out safely. (you can read more details of the robbery and various raids at the club at jauntyjoker.blogspot.com)

And, no, I do not agree with the point that the robbers act out of there being less risk of being reported. They want to make a quick (hopefully big and easy) score. I don't think they care about being reported.

[Durs522]

XXXXX clubs on Long Island got raided tonight at roughly the same time. It was obviously a coordinated effort stemming from the shooting in NYC. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Be safe if you're playing this week.

mod note - too much info - edited out.

[psandman]

[i]mod note - psandman's posts on this topic will be deleted from this point forward, he has been notified why via PM. The alternate choice would be to ban him, I'd prefer to avoid that.

[Max Raker]

[ QUOTE ]
And, no, I do not agree with the point that the robbers act out of there being less risk of being reported. They want to make a quick (hopefully big and easy) score. I don't think they care about being reported.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this can be true. There are quite a few business' that deal in cash. I think poker is a bigger target than the others because of the perception that their is a chance the police won't be called.

The key word is perception. It doesn't matter if the owners actually report 100% of the robberies, the fact that the criminals think they that might not make it more attractive to rob.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And, no, I do not agree with the point that the robbers act out of there being less risk of being reported. They want to make a quick (hopefully big and easy) score. I don't think they care about being reported.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this can be true. There are quite a few business' that deal in cash. I think poker is a bigger target than the others because of the perception that their is a chance the police won't be called.

The key word is perception. It doesn't matter if the owners actually report 100% of the robberies, the fact that the criminals think they that might not make it more attractive to rob.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant think of any other businesses where the newspapers report "$250,000 in cash was found on premises". You guys are really retarded if you don't realize this is the #1 reason why its a target - newspapers have wrongly claimed there is as much money lying around in poker clubs as you would find at a bank. Sure the perception that owners might not call in a report exists, but when that much money is involved it doesn't matter to the robbers - they are generally willing to take the risk. Keep in mind that in Manhattan so far each time the robbers were well equipped with highly illegal weapons, they were always pros - not fly by night guys with a pistole. Uzzis, sawed off shotguns, these are not the weapons of choice from petty criminals.

Last week the robbers were pissed off because they found so little money, they expected a windfall that just doesn't exist in real life. When Frank was shot it was while the thieves were robbing the individual players since there wasn't enough money in the bank, the incorrect perception of how much money is in the club far outweighs the incorrect perception that no one will call the police.