HU blind battle PF question

[vmacosta]

This came up in another thread and I think it's interesting enough to have its own thread. Plus some good posters disagreed with me so I want to see if this is consensus.

Say you are in the BB and its folded around to the SB who opens (assume for now 6max game so BB=button, but I'm thinking this is probably going to reduce down to a basic HU pf question that specialists and computer/math geeks already have a good handle on).

Assuming for now that SB opens with 60% of his hands, with what range do you 3-bet?

[NinaWilliams]

stoxtrader gives a range of 22+ A7o+ K8o+ Q9o+ J9o+ A3s+ K9s+ Q8s+ J9s+

I tend to shy away from 3 betting the non showdown value hands like Q8s and J9o and Q9o and 3 bet A6 and A5 more often.

[Guruman]

i think you'd have to make further assumptions about what sb is likely to do on a whiffed board when threebet in order to make a logical decision.

maths of poker has me thinking that the correct strategy would be either 100% of non folded hands or 0% depending on the opponent.

[gehrig]

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I tend to shy away from 3 betting the non showdown value hands like Q8s and J9o and Q9o and 3 bet A6 and A5 more often.

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no. not going to elaborate now

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maths of poker has me thinking that the correct strategy would be either 100% of non folded hands or 0% depending on the opponent.

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wtf. u 3bet when ur ahead and call when ur behind but cant fold. then u mess around at the margins some

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Also, I can find value in just calling with AA and calling flop, calling turn, and calling/raising river (depending on board/opponent).

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wtf. at least make an effort to get value for ur hands.

[NinaWilliams]

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I tend to shy away from 3 betting the non showdown value hands like Q8s and J9o and Q9o and 3 bet A6 and A5 more often.

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no. not going to elaborate now

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so I should be 3 betting J9o [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Leader]

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I tend to shy away from 3 betting the non showdown value hands like Q8s and J9o and Q9o and 3 bet A6 and A5 more often.

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no. not going to elaborate now

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so I should be 3 betting J9o [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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If you have position you should be 3-betting a ton. Fold equity is huge HU in position against an opponent with a weak range.

[Heisenb3rg]

id rather 3-bet J9o than A9o

[vmacosta]

"u 3bet when ur ahead and call when ur behind but cant fold. then u mess around at the margins some"

This is generally how I feel about it. In fact I'd rather not even mess around at the margins because I find I screw this up more often than not.

gherig and other hu specialists,
Can you please tell me how much position matters in this case? Fwiw, I find that in a normal hu match where sb=button I will 3-bet when I'm ahead of ~60% of his range whereas when its 6max and BB=button, I will be around 50%.

[Guruman]

just for fun, lets define the top 60%:

It looks like any pair, any A or K, any suited Q or J, any 2 cards with a rank of 7 or higher, any suited connector, any suited one-gapper. That's not precise according to PS, but its a reasonable approximation.

Of course that range skews heavily towards big or coordinated boards, and away from low or uncoordinated ones. Even with the heavy skewing though, villain is going to miss any random board around 2/3s of the time. Stubborn villains can decide to take any pair, any A, and lets say KTo+ to showdown pf. This accounds for 24% of all hands, which adds up to a little more than 1/3 of villain's initial 60% range.

if villain will connect 1/3 of the time and will autosd 1/3 of the time, this of course does not add up to a 2/3 sd ratio because the "connects with the board" estimate overlaps the "sd" estimate. Together they add up to about 50% of hands, which is awfully handy.

really the above is just an illustration to show how difficult it is to keep going postflop after getting threebet pf, because we all know that if we open A5o, get threebet and whiff then we should be looking for ways to move on to the next hand most of the time. This is because a threebet range should include a lot of hands that dominate A5o.

-continuing to ramble-

really the specific reads you should be looking for are the following:
1)how lightly does villain peel the flop after being threebet?
2)is villain capable of postflop bluffs or semibluffs after being threebet?

if villain gets very fit or foldish on the flop after being threeballed you should be threebetting 100% of your non-folded hands.

if villain peels alot then you should generally just call the pf raise and look to valueraise and semibluff raise the turn a lot, and showdown a lot of the rest of your range.

if villain can still checkraise semibluff a postflop street after being threebet pf then you should consider just calling 100% pf in order to keep the size of the pot smaller. this reduces the impact of folding a winner as well as reducing the incentive for your opponent to pull off a complex bluff.

the complex one is if villain will peel lightly on the flop even after being threebet but will not bluff himself postflop. In this case the best strat may be to threebet pf with the intention of checking through the flop and then betting the turn. That may be fps, but then again it may not.

Another question is "what should my fold range be" if i'm going 100% one way or the other?

this is more dependent on your opponent's postlfop play then on his opening range.

if villain gets fit or foldy postflop after being threebet, then you should probably threeball 100% of your hands 100% of the time and follow up on the flop. This inflates the pot and then buys it with a bet often enough to really ruin the guy. FWIW, villains don't tend to stay as fit or foldy as that for very long.

If villain is a maniac who is unafraid to cap with whatever, then you should reduce your range to playable and showdownable postflop hands, and then just call pf - making his bluffs more expensive to him when behind.

if villain will peel flops but wont bluff then you should probably have a range that does key off of his pf range.

i'm done rambling, probly making less sense the more i type. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[vmacosta]

Guruman,
Let's assume the villain is me. In other words, leaky agro player who wins a bit when the games are soft.

It's becoming rare to find an opponent who won't peel with single overcard+bd draws or c/r draws and weaker made hands in blind battles anyhow.