KK pf facing 4bet (not folding of course)

[Schiester]

Alright, so hypothetically speaking.

I'm dealt KK on the button against unknowns.

Relative stacks 100BBs.

UTG opens for 4BBs, folds around, I raise to 14BBs, 2folds, UTG raises to 38BBs.

Do I:

a) flat call
b) 5bet big / AI

If we're calling here we're assuming KK is good so is shoving here optimal play... or are we looking for a reason to fold the flop / setmining?


I just sucked out with KK after shoving this pf.

It seems to me that every pf4bet I see is AA.

Its all very well to say 'never fold KK pf for 100BBs or less' but whats the plan after the dreaded 4bet hits?

[EMc]

Go all in then or wait till the flop is the plan.

[toddxlogan]

Lol.

4-bets are not dreaded when you have KK pf and are 100bb's deep. They are a cause to throw a party.

After someone sticks 38bb's PF, they aren't folding. Further, if you call, an A either kills you or your action, and high cards are going to scare villian if they have a pair under that card. Just shove and fistpump. Sometimes it's AA, and you have to deal with it. Most of the time its not. I don't know how many times this thread needs to be made.

(Also, wtf at calling for setmining purposes/folding on flop?)

[Phildo]

I'm just shoving over the top of his 4-bet, so I don't have to see an ace hit and puke.

[Schiester]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol.

4-bets are not dreaded when you have KK pf and are 100bb's deep. They are a cause to throw a party.

After someone sticks 38bb's PF, they aren't folding. Further, if you call, an A either kills you or your action, and high cards are going to scare villian if they have a pair under that card. Just shove and fistpump. Sometimes it's AA, and you have to deal with it. Most of the time its not. I don't know how many times this thread needs to be made.

(Also, wtf at calling for setmining purposes/folding on flop?)

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason this post is so common is that light pf 4betting is not at low stakes.

I have almost never seen this done without AA/KK being flipped.

Not my main question though... I've accepted it, I'm not folding, and thats fine but is the best line to shove or call here? If I'm up against JJ+/AK, surely calling and seeing the flop with stacks behind is the line best suiting our villan if we're prepared to get in regardless after the flop?

[Hail Eris]

I dunno what games you play in, but there are many regs in uNL who will 4bet < KK from UTG. Also, they're never folding after putting so much money in unless they have like complete air, so just shove.

[Phildo]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason this post is so common is that light pf 4betting is not at low stakes.

I have almost never seen this done without AA/KK being flipped.

[/ QUOTE ]
This hand is from four hours ago. Villain had solid TAG preflop stats, 22/15 over 220 hands

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $49.25
UTG: $45.65
MP: $61.50
CO: $12.55
BTN: $26.85
SB: $51

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.50</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $20</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $49.25 and is All-In</font>, SB calls $29.25

Flop: ($99) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($99) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($99) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $99 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Ace King high) and WON $96 (+$46.75 NET)
SB showed A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Ace Queen high) and LOST (-$49.25 NET)

[toddxlogan]

If you haven't seen players do this with hands other than AA or KK, you haven't played nearly enough hands. I promise you players of all pf stat numbers are capable of doing this with all kinds of other hands.

I assure you every player in this forum with 100k+ hands at 50nl will attest to this statement.

[Schiester]

[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't seen players do this with hands other than AA or KK, you haven't played nearly enough hands. I promise you players of all pf stat numbers are capable of doing this with all kinds of other hands.

I assure you every player in this forum with 100k+ hands at 50nl will attest to this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I only have like 40k hands.

I don't play 50. I do watch 50/100/200 and it seems there is alot more pf 3betting etc. I'm still hacking away at 25 and some 10.

I have seen this with AK and QQ but proportionally much MUCH more often with AA/KK where I've played my hands.

I've taken the advice and have resolved to not fold. I am reluctant, but I accept that much better players than I advocate this line.

My main qualm however, is 'how do I then play when 4bet into?'

Is it best for me to shove pf or call and shove a non A flop?

I'm sick of the posts too and I do apologise. I just want to know what the consensus is regarding play after the 4bet hits.

I'm assuming that in general, the consensus is shove and leave it to the Gods?

Thanks and sorry 2p2.