Article on WinHoldEm Bot in Wired (link)

[[Phill]]

[ QUOTE ]
there's really no sense in worrying. as long as the games are still good, just concentrate on playing well. when the day comes that there are enough users that the games just aren't profitable, then I'll worry

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect poker sites will never let the game get bad and be ruined. I mean, billion 4 industries tend to strike back at threats.

The counter measures may be in their infancy, but so are the bots. When the bots get better, so do the counter measure, and so do the bots avoidance measures. Eventually it comes down to who has the most to lose and the most funding to avoid meeting that fate.

People like to gamble. People like poker and play poker online as its easy to gamble. Some sites may have bots that are winning. The big story will break and certain sites will be deserted for having bots and not doing enough to stop them(cough, party). Players will move to next site on list (stars...?). Stars will see fate of party, will come up with better anti-bot software, players go there, perhaps stars has bot scare and players move on...who knows where.

A site will always be able to offer countermeasures to the breed of bots that are available at the time if they are willing to spend the $ developing it.

Billions of $s versus some dude in a garage with a few thousand $s. Money will speak on this issue, however the end result of the poker market probably wont look the same as the current market.

Phill
ps, in the meantime play NL if you're really worried.

[gambelero2]

I wonder how well it really plays. There was nothing in there that indicated it was winning. Also, you'll note that the players actually had to program the rules in. Sounds complicated---like playing the game for real.

Notice also that it was playing low level limit holdem. Who cares about a limit holdem bot?

[gambelero2]

Where is this forum on programming strategy that they talk about? Anybody been there?

[gambelero2]

I agree with SE. The posts on the whe site never mentioned actually winning, just "should win" and a lot of will stuff. Also, talk of buying a basic strategy book and other loser stuff.

Probably 99% of these guys are playing on play money and get off on the technology part of it. It takes years and years to develop into a great poker player. There are so many decisions, so many types of players, so many situational complexities to the game. Maybe, by creating some tight first decision rules and then just playing hands out they can beat real fish, but pros should have no fear.

[sprfcta]

Picture this: Everyone gets a bot and sets it to playing

The necessity for frequent program tweaking would require close attention to the game, what with everyone making adjustments to their own bots. You would have to get a read on your opponents' next setup and adjust accordingly.

It would be a lot like playing poker.

[fimbulwinter]

i'd like to take this opportunity to bring up the subject of how awesome NL is.

fim

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
The necessity for frequent program tweaking would require close attention to the game, what with everyone making adjustments to their own bots. You would have to get a read on your opponents' next setup and adjust accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the better programmers will be reviewing hand histories, optimizing their code and opponent modeling modules; while the donks will continue to use the out of the box bot.

The players putting in the most analysis time will be the winners, just as it is today!

[hecubus]

Here's some fun facts I found on another site:

Here are the facts on Hixoxih Software makers of WinHoldem Software:
1) WinHoldemSupport has stated several times on this forum that they have
several support people and technicians.
2) WinHoldem Software is developed and published by Hixoxih Software. (www.hixoxih.com)
3) A D&B report on Hixoxih Software confirms that Hixoxih Software has a
total of 1 principal, no expenses, no credit, and has never filed any payroll information or registered as a corporation in Georgia, and is run out of Ray Bornert's house. (www.dnb.com)
4) The owner of Hixoxih Software is Ray Bornert.
5) Ray Bornert poses as WinHoldemSupport on this newsgroup,
RiskDeluxeSupport on rec.games.board.
6) WinHoldemSupport believes collusion in online poker is ok.
7) Currently Ray Bornert, owner of Hixoxih Software has a Federal Tax Lien
against his person to the tune of $351,635 details can be found at
http://www.gsccca.org/search/Lien/lienindex.asp
8) Ray is more than a little bit out there - check out his resume at http://www.hixoxih.com/software/res...nert/resume.doc

A few questions for WinHoldem's potential customers:
1) Are you willing to risk your entire bankroll to make $2 an hour when it
will take 50 hours just to pay for the software?
2) Do you wish to support a company that blantalty misrepresents
themselves?
3) Do you want to give your credit card information to a person who
believes cheating is ok and owes the government $351,000? Do you still want to after reading his resume?

[grazek]

Ummm, if anyone can buy this bot for $200 I would think that the poker sites would shell out the $200 so they can determine how to detect and defeat the thing. Maybe I'm wrong...

[SumZero]

I wish people (in general) would stop confusing a bot (an automated AI poker playing) with collusion.

I have no problem with bots playing poker (as long as it is following the T&C of the web site in question [and as long as it isn't run by the poker website in question!]) and wouldn't avoid a web site that allowed bots. If you look at the algorithms posted over at the winholdem site linked in this thread they are just a more computerish expression of the kind of strategy charts that serves a similar purpose the the strategy charts you can find in the sshe forum of 2+2 (something like the grid based ohgeetee's excel chart based on Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth). The bots in question are just running their algorithm.

I mean there is a market for some online video games where people (typically in developing countries) "farm" objects by following a strict script to earn the objects and these objects are then sold to third parties (in games like Ultima Online). Would you have a problem with a person devising this kind of strategy and then paying third world people to play poker online following some very well specified algorithmic strategy identical to the strategy that WinHoldEm does?

Collusion is a totally different beast and represents something that is against the rules in a way that is completely different than playing a sound strategy. By colluding and sharing cards or owning pieces of each other or manipulating pot sizes a person is not playing on the even playing field the bot (or farm of developing countries workers) is. But to collude one doesn't need a bot. You could use IM to communicate with a partner and collude that way. You could be a husband and wife playing in the same poker tournament in the same house and end up at the same final table able to see each other's screens. You could be a professional poker player with a serious percentage of one of the other pro players at the final 3 people left in a major poker tournament. Collusion both implicit and explicit is a problem.

Hence I think colluding is the problem win WinHoldEm and with the article and the big potential problem for poker (live and online). I think non-cheating bots are a distraction from that issue and are not a problem.