Should I hate myself for c/c'ing the whole way?

Howard Beale · #1 08-20-2007, 08:44 PM

CAZ 40. This pot is 6-handed due to walkers w/ a half-kill in action. Villain is a steady, solid pro player who won't get fancy on me but he is stuck and seems a bit affected by it.

I raise UTG w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Villain 3-bets, the rest fold and I call. He either had a pair, say, 77+ or a strong Ace and I have no idea which it is.

Flop:

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 2 baby[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s.

Turn:

Another baby[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

River: blank.

The header says it all. I had no idea if I was winning or losing at any point in the hand and villain bet every street. Horrible? Let him hang himself w/ an underpair trying to move me off my hand? Toss in a raise somewhere? Just call and pray like I did?

This hand froze me. I thinks it's tough to give advice for a situation like this w/o knowing villain fairly well but opinions are very welcome.

Capitan23 · #2 08-20-2007, 08:48 PM

yes you should hate yourself. PF is a fold, if you choose to play it then you need to be raising flop.

Sailboats · #3 08-20-2007, 09:06 PM

Why would PF be a fold? AJo... 6 handed?

And i agree you should put in some action on the flop. I would probably C/R the flop and see what he does, but maybe a better line would be to bet/call and then lead the turn?

Oh and my advice doesnt matter really anyway; i just noticed we have a foul deck. Call for a setup.

surfdoc · #4 08-20-2007, 09:32 PM

Maybe you could tell us your plan for the rest of the hand after you CR the flop. What are you hoping to acclomplish?

BTW, nice meeting you last night. Congrats on the solid score.

Sailboats · #5 08-21-2007, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you could tell us your plan for the rest of the hand after you CR the flop. What are you hoping to acclomplish?

BTW, nice meeting you last night. Congrats on the solid score.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea i try and get to fancy it seems sometimes. Well i think everyone is right and the best way to play is as a WA/WB situation, but i think it does change when you have a read on the player and C/C might not be the best line. And even if you did C/R this flop most people i see, don't fold a medium/big PP on this flop, especially with the flush draw.

Oh nice meeting you surf, I guess i did play with you one time before in a MM game. I had you pegged as a rock, but you were probably were just card dead heh. Did you change to my table? it calmed down a bit but there was one player worth staying for.

surfdoc · #6 08-21-2007, 03:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you could tell us your plan for the rest of the hand after you CR the flop. What are you hoping to acclomplish?

BTW, nice meeting you last night. Congrats on the solid score.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea i try and get to fancy it seems sometimes. Well i think everyone is right and the best way to play is as a WA/WB situation, but i think it does change when you have a read on the player and C/C might not be the best line. And even if you did C/R this flop most people i see, don't fold a medium/big PP on this flop, especially with the flush draw.

Oh nice meeting you surf, I guess i did play with you one time before in a MM game. I had you pegged as a rock, but you were probably were just card dead heh. Did you change to my table? it calmed down a bit but there was one player worth staying for.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right that they don't fold on the flop. They often peel to save face and then fold on the turn. I am not advocating never CRing this flop. It is just not the best play IMO in this particular spot given the villian's description. Now, if the game was shorthanded or there was a lot of posturing and hands played against this villian then I would CR the flop not infrequently since I will also be doing it sometimes without an ace especially if I feel my opponent is folding too many turns and exploitable.

As far as your other questions, I didn't swtich games. I went on a mini 1.5 rack rush and decided to head to the cage and go mess around with a friend/student of mine that was playing 4/8.

I have historically played on the tighter side of TAG so it doesn't surprise me that you thought I was a rock if I got no hands. I think at this point I am trying to play too many hands and my isolation raises and steals are probably pushing the envelope of what is profitable. I sometimes miss my old discipline but still think that when the hands aren't coming it is then the real test to keep folding and avoid playing hands that you know are unprofitable and foldable in the first orbit of your session. Sometimes when sitting with mike we make side bets on who can fold the most. This would seem like a ++EV bet for me but that dude can fold with the best of them. He actually had the nerve to tell me today that I need to tighten up preflop. Hehe, that was a good one.

I don't know what "MM" means BTW.

private joker · #7 08-20-2007, 09:33 PM

Preflop raise is totally standard. On the flop you're way ahead or way behind, so it's a bad idea to put in a lot of action. Checkraising the flop sucks because he'll fold a ton of hands that have only 2 outs.

I think you played it fine, and on the river it's a you-are-there-feel-play as to whether you should c/c or c/f, as some live players will never fire a 3rd barrel on the river without AQ+. I would probably check-call.

The old line for this WA/WB situation was c-c, c-c, bet/fold, and I can see some merit for donking the river -- he might pay off with KK/QQ because your line is "weird" to him.

ProfessorBen · #8 08-20-2007, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The old line for this WA/WB situation was c-c, c-c, bet/fold, and I can see some merit for donking the river -- he might pay off with KK/QQ because your line is "weird" to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the line I wanted to take and still what I recommend. I never seem to be able to follow through on it though, because I assume good players will be able to read it for what it is and raise most cards to fold out my TPGK. Assuming no 4 flush/4straight, this board seems to be the case for this.

Anyone have thoughts on this? There are few plays(esp. live) that I can't bring myself to do and the WA/WB OOP line is one of them, because there are very few hands that I c/c the first two streets and then don't fold to a raise if I bet the river. What hands are you bet/calling here? Ax 2 pair river spike? A good player should read that as not being part of your range either.

Edit: I forgot that we raised UTG 6 handed, and that Axs hands are likely within our range. That still doesn't change the fact that our range looks heavily weighted to fold if we bet.

DosXX · #9 08-21-2007, 01:23 AM

Preflop is good, flop and turn are good.

I'm fine c/c the river instead of bet-calling, b/c the range of hands that we beat and call us is very slim here. I prefer to let him bet his unpaired hands as a bluff on the end. Stox talks about the c/c, c/c, bet/fold line, he doesn't do it much for the same reasons, the range is small that villain will call with.

Howard Beale · #10 08-21-2007, 01:29 AM

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Why would PF be a fold? AJo... 6 handed?

And i agree you should put in some action on the flop. I would probably C/R the flop and see what he does, but maybe a better line would be to bet/call and then lead the turn?

Oh and my advice doesnt matter really anyway; i just noticed we have a foul deck. Call for a setup.

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I'm a lousy proof-reader. Pick either red Ace for the flop.