Is it ever right to chase a backdoor low?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I figure if i get some action out of the blinds and the first two limpers, thats the best way to maximize the pot PF.

[/ QUOTE ]Cowboy - That's true. It is the way to maximize the pot PF. But it's not usually the way to maximize what the pot size will be on the river. If your opponents were completely undeterred by your raise, then it would be, but I don't think that's usually the case, even in a low limit game. When you raise before the flop with ace-deuce, then when the flop is favorable to you, some of them will back off later, putting you on ace-deuce plus very possibly another wheel card like a four for your pre-flop raise. Others, facing a double bet before the flop will immediately fear the worst and fold.

I remember when I was nine years old and one of my sisters was twenty. She liked to play this dumb game called canasta. She never once beat me at the game, because she played it purely stupidly. (And then she'd accuse me of cheating - but even if I had the inclination to cheat, which I didn't, there was no need). You get someone who is purely stupid about playing Omaha-8 and maybe your pre-flop raise strategy will work. But it sure won't work against me, and it sure won't work against almost everyone who plays against me.

[ QUOTE ]
Of some marginal value, I was able to buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. But you have the type of hand that makes the nuts. You don't need the button when you have the nuts. [ QUOTE ]
If i flopped a big draw hopefully i could raise a bet from EP in order to trap players in the middle for 2 bets post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, if they're all stupid. [ QUOTE ]
i see your arguement as well, but does it being a low-limit game affect your thinking at all?

[/ QUOTE ]Your opponents are probably not as skilled as opponents at higher levels, but they're not usually purely stupid (although I'll agree some are at least somewhat obtuse - but that's true at higher limits as well). But, yes, I think your pre-flop value raise strategy has a better chance of working against non-skilled players than skilled players. And I think you're more likely to encounter such players at low limits.

Buzz

[cowboy2579]

well, i guess the question here is: aren't the unskilled players the ones that i should be targeting regardless of limit? maybe with the PF raise i'll get less action out of skilled players, but do i really want that much action out of them to begin with? Obviously, i don't want to play against a table full of your clones, but isn't that a [censored] unprofitable game anyway?

Also, seems like if I flop big in a pot that was raised PF, I get paid off by people who are chasing long-shot or dead draws who must be justifying it through pot odds.

[Pnigro]

hmmm hey Buzz with what kind of hands should we raise in this spot then??

Believe it or not, many players at this level will find it harder it to fold when the pot on the flop is $8.5 and are more inclined to stay in, than when there was no raise and they just put $1 and the pot is $4.5

Yeah some of them will put you on A2 but many others will just try to stay if they somehow hit the flop.

I raise all the time with A24x ace suited, unless early position at a semi-tight table.

I see your point but I don't think it's a terrible raise AT ALL.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i guess the question here is: aren't the unskilled players the ones that i should be targeting regardless of limit?

[/ QUOTE ]I have to admit that your reasoning does have a certain ring of logic to it. I can't think of a very good riposte.

Yet although your reasoning is clever, I'm not buying the Brooklyn bridge. I don't think you maximize your profits with this fine starting hand by raising from mid position before the flop.

You may not do better than the more skilled players by the end of a playing session, but you should be able to beat them on some hands by using some skill yourself, especially when you have a starting hand as good as this one.

[ QUOTE ]
maybe with the PF raise i'll get less action out of skilled players, but do i really want that much action out of them to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. You should want to collect from as many customers as possible, skilled or unskilled, when you make the nuts. This starting hand is one that has a good chance to make the nuts. (But it fizzles on the flop and then you should want to get out as cheaply as possible).

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, i don't want to play against a table full of your clones, but isn't that a [censored] unprofitable game anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]There are lots of poker players out there who have more poker skill than me. The key to making money playing poker is to find games where you can beat at least some of your opponents. But I don't think making money is the real reason most people play poker.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, seems like if I flop big in a pot that was raised PF, I get paid off by people who are chasing long-shot or dead draws who must be justifying it through pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps. I think sometimes people are gambling without much regard for the odds.

Clearly the odds are not in favor of anyone pulling the handle on a slop machine. Anyone who loses a lot of money playing a slot machine must simply be gambling. They hope or think they'll get lucky. And sometimes they do get lucky.

I think some people find their way into poker games with the same mind set as the slots players. And just as slots players sometimes do, poker players sometimes play against the odds and get lucky too (as when you hold
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]), the flop is
J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and you make the nut low on the river, thus beating the odds and probably winning some money.

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's a terrible raise AT ALL

[/ QUOTE ]Pnigro - I appreciate your point of view.

Maybe "terrible" was the wrong word to use.

Yet that was my initial reaction to Gar's statement that he liked the raise.

I completely disagreed with him. And it seems as though you completely disagree with me. Fair enough.

Although I can see mixing up one's play, I still don't like the mid-position pre-flop raise with this hand, at least in a limit game. I just don't think it's the way to maximize the profit potential of this fine starting hand. I'd limp with this hand and then probably re-raise, depending, if I got the chance. Or I'd wait until a bit later to pull the trigger.

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz with what kind of hands should we raise in this spot then??

[/ QUOTE ]I think you should raise from this spot (mid-position) with any hand you feel like playing, not because the hand is better than some others, but because you want to make it tough for somone to continue, because you want to intimidate someone, because you want to knock someone out of a hand. And I don't think you should raise unless your raise has a decent chance of accomplishing your goal. I'll agree that sometimes you do better by raising with this hand from mid-position, but I think usually you do not. That's just my opinion, and based on my observations over the years, many very fine players evidently disagree with me.

[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, many players at this level will find it harder it to fold when the pot on the flop is $8.5 and are more inclined to stay in, than when there was no raise and they just put $1 and the pot is $4.5

[/ QUOTE ]I do believe it. I see it almost every time I play.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah some of them will put you on A2 but many others will just try to stay if they somehow hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]There really are some poor players out there, aren't there!

[ QUOTE ]
I raise all the time with A24x ace suited, unless early position at a semi-tight table.

[/ QUOTE ]You've got a lot of company!

Buzz

[T50_Omaha8]

[ QUOTE ]
with what kind of hands should we raise in this spot then??

[/ QUOTE ]

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I raise in early/middle position with these hands very often, especially when I'm in earlier position than the OP. Although they are solid in at least one direction, they generally work well in shorthanded non-nut situations. These are hands where the decrease in pot equity caused by each additional player entering the hand is significant, generally meaning someone who has a hand like this should try to thin out the competition.

[stupoman44]

Without any real prospects for high (paired board, no diamonds for flush) a wheel won't win high with 6 callers seeing the flop. You are taking too great of a chance to get the runner-runner low here in the "HOPE" of getting half the pot.

Backdoor lows are great when you have good high prospects too. Otherwise, why take the risk? To me, I dumb after the flop and move on. Most of the time you are just giving your money away. I know a lot of guys will disagree, but that's me.
Stupo

[portisfreak]

Chasing backdoor lows is generally a bad idea unless the pot is HUGE (though you might end up getting quarted anyway) or if backdoor possibilities exist to aim for high as well (backdoor straights, flushes).

[chaos]

I generally do not raise in that situation. Raising may drive out players with marginal hands. You prefer players with non nut low draws and non nut flush draws to call and chase you. You make money from these players since they will be drawing dead or thin.

[Bill King]

what made you call the flop? what can you beat? what are you looking for? etc..

no offense at all but this is pretty badly played.