ATs I cold call otb

[Zentazimo]

utg is a lag pre & post
utg+1 is very loose (60vpip), standard post.
the blinds are loose


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.5SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (7.25BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero ??

[ornery]

i would call. i don't think you're dealing with a AA since no one reraised you on the flop. they've probably got AK, AQ, AJ, but you've still got a OESD . If u don't hit the river, I'd call down for one bet, but i'd fold if it was raised, which should be ez seeing you're last to act.

[fretelöo]

Fine, now you know you're up against AQ and AK at least. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thus, your straight outs are probably clean, as should be the three T, at least half the time (would either one raise or even reraise with AJ?). So you have the odds to call.

Und fertig ist der Lack! lol

Na, that's probably a bit too sloppy. One of them for sure has an ace. Cold calling with 77/88/99 isn't hard for a loose player. So, I indeed would assume that your straight outs are good, with the 6 holding up at least 2/3 of the time. Maybe one of them has AJ so your T would be outs only half the time, but if an J falls, you'll win 2/3 and chop 1/3. Those percentages might be a bit off, though from my limited experience, I would say more to the conservative side. I don't think another Ace helps you.
You get 13:2 on the turn, so you need 7 outs. I'd say you have those.

[Point Blank]

i've started to fold in this spot ... most of the time I 've eiher seen a bigger ace, two pair, or the straight (I hate when the board has 987, or T98) ... UTG1 check, 3bets can only be bad for you

pre flop I don't think matters much

I'm not sure about the flop raise ... what do you do when UTG 3balls his overs? (which will happen often enough) ... do you take the free card (what about the river when UTG leads 100% with 'whatever')

[ornery]

why shouldn't he at least call to see the river card? I mean he still does have a straight draw going, assuming that his A outs and 10 outs are both bad, he still has 8 outs for the straight, definately call to see river card with that pot size. i don't really see any reason to fold.

[Point Blank]

[ QUOTE ]
why shouldn't he at least call to see the river card? I mean he still does have a straight draw going, assuming that his A outs and 10 outs are both bad, he still has 8 outs for the straight, definately call to see river card with that pot size. i don't really see any reason to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are currently getting 13:2 to "see the river" - you are not closing the action ... likely to put in another bet so 15:3 ... any card that improves your hand makes better hands, a lot of the time

I don't like when average players "60vpip'rs" check/3bet, or check raise (normally these guy donk crap like any ace ... when they get tricky, for me, it's time to fold (pretty much this situation is similar to a 10/2/1 guy check raising me - it means I'm beat a lot of the time)

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
utg is a lag pre &amp; post
utg+1 is very loose (60vpip), standard post.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-jack pf...I don't care if the blinds come along, you have to 3-bet a big sooted ace with position against these opponents.

Flop is standard given the opponents.

On the turn...here's the thing, I don't want UTG to c/r me and risk chasing out UTG+1. That said, I think that betting it was the right thing to do. Anybody saying fold this street is on crack; unless Hero's up against either a made straight or a set he's got 8 straight outs + 3 two pair outs, and there's some nonzero chance he's ahead; a made straight only knocks that down to 10 outs, which is pretty well cancelled out by the possiblity we're up against a loose two-pair so our 2 aces are good. Even if Hero "knows" that this will be capped behind him he has to call getting 16:3.

As to a river plan, you have absolute position. Re-evaluate.

[Bona]

They really liked that A on the turn didn't they? Given all are pretty loose as you said they could both be playing aces with lower kickers. But on the other hand maybe not. The really good news is your OESD is alive and well with no flush possible and if hit will beat anything except TJ.

I think we call the two because even ignoring our top pair the straight draw has pot odds to call (or very very close)
And of course call if capped.

The river might get dicey though if the straight doesn't hit. UI on the river I check and call one but I don't know about 2. I don't know how often this hand will win here unimproved but you would have to believe it will win at least one out 9 times to call 2 at that point. I don't think it will against 2 players who bet and raise the river. (There is often truth at the river [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

[Point Blank]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody saying fold this street is on crack; unless Hero's up against either a made straight or a set he's got 8 straight outs + 3 two pair outs

[/ QUOTE ]

well, I am at work - it has similar brain numbing effects [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I would like to see a little more info on UTG1 ... it's the check/3bet, by a player I'm assume isn't aggressive enough to check/3bet without a massive hand, that makes me want to fold (I never see these guy raise an Ace-twopair ... I would think he donks almost 100% on the turn and calls down a raise) ... I assume in this spot it's either set or JT (but even the set seems a little low)

if I hit the 7 I'm losing 4big bets, if I hit the Jack I split ... if I hit the Ten (I lose, but would call)

I don't know to go about calculations for this ... in my head this is JT most often, followed by a set, and lagging well behind is two pair

if JT and I hit a 7 ... I lose big
if JT and I hit a J ... I split
if JT and I hit a Ten ... i lose mid size bet
if a set and I hit my straight ... I don't win max
if a set and hit Ten ... lose mid size
if Two pair ... I don't win max when hitting straight, or bigger two pair

this call is very close (when factoring in rake) ...

I think another big thing for me is ... by the river, even if I don't improve I may call even two back (as the pot will be really big)

[Goodnews]

Preflop is ok (I'd rather fold vs laggy opponents).

As played, I like your flop raise.

On the turn, I am definitely taking a free card here, with the intention of check/call the river UI.

On the turn, you can't have the best ace here, and even if you do there is a chance that they will fold if you bet. However, its almost guaranteed they will call with a better ace. Its also essentially guaranteed that they will bet the river with an ace weak kicker, so in this situation, I'd rather be passive.

Worse case scenario is you visit value town for a single bet.

I also acknowlege the size of this pot, but the truth is if they have anything better than your hand, they are not folding anyway so there is no point in trying to blow away any hands (as previously stated, only the worse hands might consider folding here)...

The hand plays out differently if you checked behind.

As played, I will call here, and check/fold w/o that straight. Even if you have aces up on the river, you now need to worry about a j or 7.