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  #21  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:57 PM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me.

The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs.

And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I would say that I just think you are mistaken. I'm not going to claim that Islam is a great thing and that there aren't any objectionable tenets or practices. However, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who think these practices are abhorrent.

Actually, I will take it one step further just for arguments sake. Even if what you say is true and these practices are rooted in some interpretation of the religion. If a majority of the practitioners of this religion don't advocate these things, I would argue that it is a mistake to say that it is the core religion that is at fault. Pragmatically speaking, as I said earlier, decrying the entire religion simply alienates all those who would otherwise agree with your overall point.

There is a large disagreement about the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. For example, some people think the 2nd amendment gives everyone the right to own a gun, some people think it applies only to militia. But I would never say that America is to blame or that being American is ridiculous because you open yourself up to these problems.
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  #22  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:57 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

<font color="blue">I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful. </font>

If this is true, then why aren't they some of the more vocal opponents of Islamic fanaticism?

If certain members of my family were also KKK members, and my family started getting a reputation for affiliation with the KKK, I'd be among the first to be ostracizing these rogue family members from the top of my lungs.

Chez says this is happening in the UK. We certainly don't see or hear of it happening here. Am I to believe this the result of a biased Western media?
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  #23  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:02 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

<font color="blue"> However, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who think these practices are abhorrent. </font>

Let's stop there. I'm seriously trying to have a fruitful discussion.

Millions upon millions of Muslims find WHAT practices abhorant? The flogging of a 19 year old girl who's been raped? Fine. But that's NOT the only point here. It's WHY she's being flogged in the first place!!!!!!!

They are still perfectly in sync with their brethren about the crime she supposedly committed. So the way I take what you're saying is, you are ok about the oppression of women, just not the punishment. I can't believe that's your position, so please clarify what you're saying for me.
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  #24  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:06 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

<font color="blue">the prison staff and warden and the mental health guys all know it goes on and they look the other way and let it go on and in extreme cases they actively enable it. </font>

I knew you'd say this and I was waiting for it. Prison guards and wardens STILL only makeup a handful of people! What we're talking about here is an entire country!
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  #25  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:35 PM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

There are a few issues here.

1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car.
2) The punishment for said crime – lashing.
3) Whether or not anyone should care.


1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well.

2) I am against capital and corporal punishment.

3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned.

I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing.

I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam.
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  #26  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:47 PM
willie24 willie24 is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

i agree that the powers that be should be attempting to aid this woman and to punish those who commit crime against her.

punish them not for their beliefs, but for their actions. you can believe whatever you want - but you can't force someone else to follow your beliefs.
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:51 PM
tarheeljks tarheeljks is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
i agree that the powers that be should be attempting to aid this woman and to punish those who commit crime against her.

punish them not for their beliefs, but for their actions. you can believe whatever you want - but you can't force someone else to follow your beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

the powers that be as in the saudi government? aren't they just enforcing their theocratic law?
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  #28  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:52 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

<font color="blue"> 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. </font>

I can't believe what I've been reading here from several posters, not just this, so no offense. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone. With all due respect...

What do you MEAN you don't have an opinion on this?!! You don't have an opinion on whether or not women should be oppressed by men?!?!?!?! Do you honestly think that it's ok for men to OWN the women in their families?!?!?!?!! That a woman is the property of her family or husband?
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:57 PM
willie24 willie24 is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

i was purposely ambiguous with "powers that be"- i did not mean to limit it to those in saudi arabia, but i did not mean for it to exclude saudi arabians either.
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  #30  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:05 AM
willie24 willie24 is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
One of us doesn't get it. Maybe it's me.

The degree of nuttiness is irrevelant. It's the core axioms that are off. It's from these beginning axioms that major nuttiness occurs.

And we're doing this story injustice by using terms like nutty. It's much graver than that. It's nothing short of abominable how they treat women. And don't tell me it's a govermental problem. Its seeds are rooted in religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

the messed-up beliefs, in general, are not the problem. the problem is the one particular belief that "I am right, and therefore everyone else must be wrong, and therefore i have the right to impose my beliefs on everyone else, and this is a fact that cannot be debated."

this is one "belief" that CAN be easily proven to be dead wrong through the use of simple logic - yet it has existed forever. it's perhaps the single most devestating belief in the history of mankind.
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