Hero opens from Button - 3bet by mcTAG in the blinds.

[Hail Eris]

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so you're gonna start calling with TJs and floating missed flops? Feel free to report back imo

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And shoving. But yeah, so far so good. Certainly better than 4bet/calling with Axo, imo.

[matrix]

Traz - whats your plan of attack with those 5 hands in this spot?

Eris - so you plan to call pf with all 5 of these hands then on the flop assuming you like the flop if villain CB's you push, and if villain doesn't CB ??

What flops do you give up on and fold to villains CB?

[matrix]

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I am folding the Ax's, both of em. I probably call with JTs, KJs, and TT. If the board comes fairly dry I will play back at c-bets also.

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Have you stoved your equity with these hands? (Lets assume that villains 3bet is "what it says it is" and he has the rather tight range of JJ+ AK AQs)

If not - what are you basing your decision on to play JTs/KJs but not Ax ???

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
Eris - so you plan to call pf with all 5 of these hands then on the flop assuming you like the flop if villain CB's you push, and if villain doesn't CB ??

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Nah, well, I'm doing different things depending on the dynamic, but in general I hate 4betting TT and the broadways, and will only 4bet with the Ax hands. I'm also 4betting to like $17-18 and folding if he shoves (in general). If I'm going to 4bet bluff, I want a hand that can either snapcall or snapfold, not a hand that leaves me guessing or doing equity calcs. I've seen people 5bet shove AQs from the blinds, fwiw.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but whatever. I think 4betting Ax fits best into a gameplan that involves 4bet-shoving, rather than 4betting small, and I don't like that gameplan, because I think 4bet-shoving 67o is really gross, but there are definitely spots where I'm convinced that villain is FOS and would like to 4bet with 67o.

As far as good and bad flops go, good flops are flops where you make at least a pair and villain isn't likely to have made anything. (E.g. you call with 87s and flop J7x) Bad flops are flops with an A,K,Q, two to a broadway, etc. Bad flops are also ones containing multiple draws, none of which you have.

Just imagine that a TAG villain opens in MP, you flat OTB. You have to play back at him with some frequency if you're playing correctly. You should basically have a general idea of which flops are bad for him and which flops are good. Just treat a 3bet pot where you're CO/OTB and he's in the blinds the same.

[Khumalo]

My limited experience indicates that a mixture of the methods mentioned in this thread works well, and you can change things up based on situational factors.

For example, if I am up against a regular or someone I have history with or some guy I expect to be playing against for a few hundered hands, and he's 3-betting light, I might use the CTS-inspired 4-bet shove with Ax/AA/KK, adjusting my Ax frequencies depending on flow, how villain is attempting to adjust, what got shown down, etc.

Under more volatile circumstances, I will switch between light 4-betting 2.25x (folding bluffs to a shove) and calling somewhat light in order to shove/call-down on certain flops with certain ranges.

In general, I am more likely to see flops with hands that can make two viable pairs (+ draw) like KJs, and bluff 4-bet small with something like A3s, but I vary things.

[traz]

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Traz - whats your plan of attack with those 5 hands in this spot?


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i) JTs- fold
ii) Axo- fold
iii) Axs- 4bet small/fold OR 4bet shove
iv)TT- call
v)KJs- fold

These are how I would play these hands IF i wanted to get jiggy. With TT if I'm calling PF, I'd call just about any flop when he cbets, possibly raising flops with all unders.

In addition, if someone is 3betting me a ton from the blinds, I'm fine with tightening up my stealing range. Sure, I may miss a bunch of steals, but that will be paid back in full when I raise a premium hand and he 3bets me light.

With regards to 4betting, I usually 4bet small with everything, but recently at party 200nl the light 3/4/5-betting has been RIDICULOUS, so to curb it I started 4bet shoving with a wide range. Worked well to stop retards from getting too aggro pf. But it really has been an extreme set of circumstances.

As already said, Party 200nl has been bonkers in this department recently, and I've had to experiment with alot of different ideas. These are the things which have worked best for me.

[carnivalhobo]

Q1: Not as likely as you might think. Folding might still be the best play here with all but the actually good hands. Even at levels where people are really getting out of line preflop, they are probably doing it less often than you "feel" like its happening.

Q2: I typically 4bet with hands like AQ+ QQ+ and bluffs usually in the form of Axs and suited connectors. I typically 4bet an amount that makes my play against a 5betAI easy. (ie. dont let yourself get like 2.9:1 with A9s). I think 4bet shoving is really bad without a read that the guy sucks and is going to call with like 88.

Q3: My note would look like "3bet XX btn v blind, call 4betai"

Q4: The first and maybe not most obvious, is to tighten up. Reduce your range to the the hands you dont mind getting 3bet with until he cools off.

Alternatively we can start 4betting a wider range. This can get expensive, and if he is just on a rush is pretty poor.

The other option is to start calling more of the 3bets. Medium pairs are a decent place to start and suited connectors are also decent. You will likely need to bluff raise or float some % of the time to make these preflop calls profitable.


i) JTs - decent suited connector as it actually has decent pair value, but a lot of times something like 54s will actually play better after the flop.
ii) Axo - same as Axs, except not as good lol.
iii) Axs - meh, if you really think hes FOS, i like a 4bet here, but if you call and shove any flop they will be forced to fold a good deal of their range.
iv)TT - Good spot to call IMO, showdown value, and reletively easy to play postflop when most villains wont be doublebareling air.
v)KJs - Id avoid this hand until you know the guy is really wacko, a "light" 3bettor is going to have hands like AJ and KQ in addition to all the other hands that dominate you too often.