NL50 - why is "bet/call, bet" a bad line?

Ramana · #1 10-14-2007, 05:59 PM

Villain is 21/9/3, small sample size.

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button ($49.67)
SB ($6.04)
BB ($3.21)
Hero ($49.25)
MP ($37.52)
CO ($37.83)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 3 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $3.21, CO raises to $6.42, Hero calls $3.21.

Turn: ($17.59) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $11

Same villain, different board.

Button ($49.67)
SB ($6.04)
BB ($3.21)
Hero ($49.25)
MP ($37.52)
CO ($37.83)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 3 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $3.21, CO raises to $6.42, Hero calls $3.21.

Turn: ($17.59) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $11

I'm lost in this spot. Is this line any good? Why not?

Second hand is fabricated, I want to know whether this line is dependant on the board texture. In the second example we assume that villain might have been semi-bluffing the flop and we want to avoid giving him a free card. I obviously play b/f turn, since I assume that he will push on a bluff or semi-bluff very rarely.

Unimproved should we always be in c/c mode on a blank turn after b/c on a dry flop?

yegon · #2 10-14-2007, 06:42 PM

First hand I fold to the flop minraise. We are OOP why would we call - to draw to a better hand? If we call and check turn villain will bet most of the times and we would have to fold without specific reads. If we lead out turn unimproved we are just risking more money gaining nothing because villain has position on us and will only call if we are beat.

Second hand is tougher, there's a lot of draws. I could see myself calling the minraise and c/c-ing nonflush non 7TQK turn and river against an aggro opponent. Still I don't think folding flop or c/f turn is terrible because of the huge disadvantage of being OOP.

CruS · #3 10-14-2007, 06:47 PM

Just folding hand one is very exploitable imo, you have TPTK and the board is pretty drawy.

bored · #4 10-14-2007, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just folding hand one is very exploitable imo, you have TPTK and the board is pretty drawy.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is J74r drawy?

yegon · #5 10-14-2007, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just folding hand one is very exploitable imo, you have TPTK and the board is pretty drawy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you meant hand two. Yeah it's a tougher decision but still - we are OOP. What would you suggest? Call flop, c/f turn?

NL Newbie · #6 10-14-2007, 07:42 PM

First flop is not drawy. 56 only draw i really see, 2nd flop is very drawy though.

So theres two arguements.

Fold hand 1, reraise hand 2.
Reasoning: Villan will go wild with sets, but he wont with KJ/QJ will he? So your prob behind.

Villan in hand 2 has a tonne of draws so get extra value by raising.

The other arguement is the opposite. Dry board in hand 1, mayeb he loves KJ/QJ to much so reraise.

Hand 2 - Drawy board, equity maybe poor so call/lead turn.

Personally i think the 2nd arguement is weak, the first seems logical.

Now it comes down to what hes minraising with, does he stack off with TPGK? etc.

CruS · #7 10-14-2007, 07:57 PM

wow my mistake, I said first because I mean first hand but I was looking at the second flop while typing.. sorry.

yegon · #8 10-14-2007, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Villan in hand 2 has a tonne of draws so get extra value by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising commits us (villain will have about 1/2 pot left behind after he calls our raise) so we are playing for stacks. Does the wetness of the board warrant going AI with a pair of jacks?

Khumalo · #9 10-14-2007, 08:07 PM

The thing with a "bet/call, bet" line is that it typically signals a lot of strength, and should be applied judiciously, in my opinion.

In hand one, villain, who's not too aggro, attacks your c-bet on a very dry board. If you're somehow ahead, and he's running a rare bluff, or testing his TT-88 (which is way behind), your turn lead often shuts down that entire part of his range, when other lines might not. This means he can't easily continue putting money in with a worse hand, and if he has you beat, you're building the pot for him OOP.

Against another opponent, say a maniac who wants to felt any J because it's (omg!) top pair, 'bet/call, bet' can be a variation on 5-betting the flop all-in or whatever, especially on a dry board.

You can also use 'bet/call, bet' to manipulate thinking opponents who might have some history with you. A turn lead might freeze up some of them and get you to showdown more easily. It might look bluffy/weird to others and unexpectedly net you more action from a wider range.

Against fish, it might be good against a certain breed who make generic type raises with all their (say) flush draws, will fold to a flop 3 bet, but will keep paying a lot to chase in position when the turn blanks. This scenario is a little precise, so your 'bet/call, bet' line needs to be backed by reads.

In a total vaccuum, the problem with 'bet/call, bet' for value is that it tends to fold worse hands, prevents bluffs you could pick off with a check-call, loses value versus aggro droolers you ought to be CRing all-in on the turn (although the latter case is debatable.)

Using it to bluff or block bet is a murkier matter, and requires insight into villain, plus an overall style of play that harmonizes well with such a move, plus some kind of history.