a curious preflop idea: protecting the fish from other TAGs

[Trix]

Dont think a loose-bad player behind should make you more likely to reraise a weak hand as your steal equity goes down.

[freddy10-4]

I don't think i like this much.

Either

1) the fish folds and we end up playing junk OOP against a regular (assuming he starts to give our 3bets less respect, which is likely)

2) the fish calls and the reg folds leaving us OOP against a bad player where we are going to need to hit a hand to continue as we are unlikely to 'outplay' (bluff him out) him if he is a fish

3) the fish AND the reg call in which case we will prob c/f unless we make a hand

[Triumph36]

I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

[Janis N.]

RoundTower makes an excellent point.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate playing in games with tons of 3 betting, and im sure the fish feel the same way

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah I think fish hate getting 3bet all the time and not see a flop. So if it were to piss of fish so much they'd switch to blackjack (where there's no 3betting going on) it may even be EV- to 3bet a wide range long-term. But I don't think the fish will be that pissed off.

[tozzy]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

[/ QUOTE ]
why would i want to fold the fish out with a strong hand?!

[AbreuTime]

It depends on the kind of fish, but most fish hate to fold (preflop and postflop). So I hate this theorem, and think it is backwards.

I agree with the following:
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think i like this much.

Either

1) the fish folds and we end up playing junk OOP against a regular (assuming he starts to give our 3bets less respect, which is likely)

2) the fish calls and the reg folds leaving us OOP against a bad player where we are going to need to hit a hand to continue as we are unlikely to 'outplay' (bluff him out) him if he is a fish

3) the fish AND the reg call in which case we will prob c/f unless we make a hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it. You're marked with strong hands because with weakish hands you'd call to get the fish in there with you.

Not sure why it's posted..

[/ QUOTE ]
why would i want to fold the fish out with a strong hand?!

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't. however, you don't really want to play AA OOP against two players do you? plus there's a greater than average chance that fish cold-calls.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the value, to you, of the TAG getting a shot at the fish's stack?

Let's say the fish is really bad, -25ptBB/100. He loses one small blind per hand on average. There is no reason to think this hand will be particularly good or bad for him, so let's say you can expect him to lose 1SB on average this hand (in addition to the 2SB he will lose if you 3 bet and he folds).

How much is it worth to you to have that extra 1SB in the fish's stack? Let's say he is destined to lose all his money at the table, and everybody else at the 6-handed table has an equal shot at it (in reality you have less of a shot since you are on his right). Then keeping the fish out of the TAG's way is worth <u>one fifth of a SB</u> to you.

Ignoring the fish, 3 betting the TAG much more liberally is surely going to cost you much more than this. If the fish is so bad that this strategy becomes worthwhile, it must be just as good to just call more in this spot and get in a pot with the fish at all costs.

Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your last statement is correct (that it might be just as good to call and get in the pot), but how you get there is flawed.

I wouldn't try to evenly distribute a fish's losses over all of his hands (i.e. -1sb/hand). I would think of it more as a fish has a higher probability of going broke on any particular hand. Calling stations are more likely to go further with their hands, thus leading to more big losses (and bigger wins). Thus, we have fat tails...

So, because the probability of our fish going broke is higher than normal on any given hand, we want to be in the pot. We also want to keep him around long enough to put ourselves in a position to play pots with him and stack him. Add in the fact that good players should be opening up thier ranges in LP when the fish is in the blinds, and I believe that a healthy mix of 3betting and calling is the way to go.

Perhaps another interesting question - assume fish is in BB and TAG opener is in CO. Would you rather 3bet or call from the btn or the sb?

[AcTiOnJaCsOn]

[ QUOTE ]
i like it

[/ QUOTE ]
ya ummm this should seem kind of obvious to a good player, its something that is intuitive, almost liek a relex, when a bad player is paying pots u should want to play them against him

[ipokeder]

uhh well this works but not so much to protect the fish's stack, much more because the TAG has a pretty loose raising range to iso the fish, so you will win the pot a whole lot