a hypothetical pf theory question

[Guruman]

you post the bb.

four limpers in, and the sb completes.

you look down and see the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Your other card is a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

you consider what the worst offsuit hand that you can raise will be...

[2+2 wannabe]

I like this question

AQ is the lowest for me - but AJ....I really want to raise it a lot but don't (I'm sure I'm giving up a lot)

p.s. could you edit it to "hypothetical" please [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Guruman]

i type good.

[Wynton]

Against table of unknowns, I raise with AQ, though I probably should raise with A10.

I've been having trouble making myself raise out of BB when I think I should.

[Peter Harris]

if they are donkeys, i'll go as low as A9.
if they are loose, i'll go AT.
if they are tight but odd, AJ.

I'll autoraise AQ/AK/AA.

[WarBus]

With 5 others in the pot and being OOP, AKo would be my lowest and I wouldn't raise this that often. With that many players, I'm happy waiting to see the flop and having the strength of my hand concealed if the flop is favorable.

[thirddan]

warbus...you are passing up a big equity edge preflop if you don't raise AK out of the bb...even 6 handed..

[WarBus]

[ QUOTE ]
warbus...you are passing up a big equity edge preflop if you don't raise AK out of the bb...even 6 handed..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the edge as being that big when you are in the BB and a preflop raise gets no one to fold preflop, builds the pot so every draw will have odds to call, and there are four people to act after you on the flop.

[Guruman]

I think that there are a couple of universally applicable generalizations that we can make here to help us with this decision.

first, most of the limpers very likely have drawing hands like AXs, suited connectors, or mid-to-weak PPs.

how does our offsuit ace play as compared to that range? Well if the kicker is of value they play pretty well, since we'll dominate the other aces, and have overs to lots of the connectors and pairs. we obviously want to raise it up with a decent ace if we're reasonably sure that one or two of the limpers have a worse one.

the only real concern here is the fact that we have poor position and will be unable to protect a pot from draws.

when we consider this though, we should take a look at classical fullring play to be our guide on the flop.

if we raise it up with A9 and the flop comes 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], we have the opportunity to play correctly or to really foul things up in a 12sb pot. when the sb checks, we should probably check along - looking to raise a late position bet, or just call if a bet comes from utg or mp and gets called around.

the key to profitably raising a hand like this pf is resisting the urge to spew bets "protecting" on the flop.

I think lots of big aces have all kinds of equity vs a typical limping range, and should be pushed there accordingly. The times we flop tptk and collect bets from the drawers pays off dramatically on the times they miss, while costing less when they hit. the times we take a raggy or highcarded board down UI also tend to make it worth the risk.

the real key is flop play.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
warbus...you are passing up a big equity edge preflop if you don't raise AK out of the bb...even 6 handed..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the edge as being that big when you are in the BB and a preflop raise gets no one to fold preflop, builds the pot so every draw will have odds to call, and there are four people to act after you on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... It really sucks to see them chase their own money.

You're getting 5:1 on your preflop raise (putting in one bet causes 5 other bets to go into the pot), which means if you walk away winning more than one in six times including the times they 'have odds to call' and suckout on you (and you don't spew chips all over the place when you lose), then you make money on the preflop raise.