STTF SNG->cash thread - Page 158

Jbrochu · #**1571** 10-12-2007, 10:44 AM

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Preflop I think this was fine to raise. On the flop I figured I was 3:1 to call, and if one or more of the others called then odds would be correct to call, but then one guy raised and now I'm getting around 6:1 to call. So this hand just seemed to get out of control and commit me at every turn. Did I play it terribly? One guy called me a flush chaser, I thought I played it right, and of course I kept my mouth shut. Please comments on all streets.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($4.25)
MP1 ($14.50)
Hero ($39.60)
MP3 ($24.15)
CO ($15)
Button ($63.05)
SB ($27.55)
BB ($18.50)
UTG ($12.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $1.50, Button calls $1.75, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50, UTG folds.

Flop: ($7.35) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $2, Button calls $2, BB raises to $6.25, Hero calls $6.25, CO raises to $13.25, Button folds, BB calls $7, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($49.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.75, BB calls $3.50 (All-In).

River: ($56.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $56.35

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Preflop at full ring NL25 this is not a standard raise for me. I never say never but normally I would just muck this hand unless I was in late position with a bunch of limpers, or folded to me OTB.

I would probably fold on the flop with that action in front of you, but once you call there you're committed to calling the 3rd raise. Actually might as well put the rest in right there.

jgunnip · #**1572** 10-12-2007, 10:46 AM

Jek if BTN didn't have you covered I'd advocate just sticking it all in on the flop. The way the flop played out it just looks ugly although once the BTN folds you're not folding this hand and should just put the rest of your chips in on the flop. You could be up against another flush draw which decreases your equity quite a bit if it stays 3 handed.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #**1573** 10-12-2007, 10:58 AM

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Jek if BTN didn't have you covered I'd advocate just sticking it all in on the flop. The way the flop played out it just looks ugly although once the BTN folds you're not folding this hand and should just put the rest of your chips in on the flop. You could be up against another flush draw which decreases your equity quite a bit if it stays 3 handed.

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Open shoving or CRAI on the flop? Why does it matter if BTn has me covered to do this?

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #**1574** 10-12-2007, 11:02 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Preflop I think this was fine to raise. On the flop I figured I was 3:1 to call, and if one or more of the others called then odds would be correct to call, but then one guy raised and now I'm getting around 6:1 to call. So this hand just seemed to get out of control and commit me at every turn. Did I play it terribly? One guy called me a flush chaser, I thought I played it right, and of course I kept my mouth shut. Please comments on all streets.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($4.25)
MP1 ($14.50)
Hero ($39.60)
MP3 ($24.15)
CO ($15)
Button ($63.05)
SB ($27.55)
BB ($18.50)
UTG ($12.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $1.50, Button calls $1.75, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50, UTG folds.

Flop: ($7.35) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $2, Button calls $2, BB raises to $6.25, Hero calls $6.25, CO raises to $13.25, Button folds, BB calls $7, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($49.10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.75, BB calls $3.50 (All-In).

River: ($56.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $56.35

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Preflop at full ring NL25 this is not a standard raise for me. I never say never but normally I would just muck this hand unless I was in late position with a bunch of limpers, or folded to me OTB.

I would probably fold on the flop with that action in front of you, but once you call there you're committed to calling the 3rd raise. Actually might as well put the rest in right there.

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Is folding this hand pf standard play for everyone here? If it was raised I would most likely fold, but there is only one limper. Obviously in a SNG this would be a fold, but I thought in cash you need to open up your starting hand requirements as compaired to SNG, otherwise people will just fold when you enter a pot unless they have monsters them selves???

ChrisV · #**1575** 10-12-2007, 11:15 AM

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blackize,

re the AK hand, I always checkraise there. The EV of bet/fold and CRAI are very similar if you get called, but the extra money you get in the pot when they're bluffing more than compensates for the free card you might give. Also you get the odd guy who convinces himself that his K3 suited can't possibly be any good versus a checkraise line.

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Do you still c/r here if villain has $50 behind instead of $18 (obviously not crai)?

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No, but I do that on low paired flops versus LAGs sometimes. Say the flop comes like 622. If I bet my AK (or AQ or whatever, I do it with a bunch of hands) I know I'm going to get floated, so I check to him. If he checks behind that's OK, I'll just bet the turn as he can't easily have a real hand. If he checks, I quickly checkraise and it's really tough for them to call with something like a 6 or pocket pair. Vs tough players if you want to run this line you have to do it with big pairs sometimes too.

The problem with doing that on this flop is twofold - firstly he's more likely to have a real hand and secondly the board is drawy so he may take one off against me.

jgunnip · #**1576** 10-12-2007, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jek if BTN didn't have you covered I'd advocate just sticking it all in on the flop. The way the flop played out it just looks ugly although once the BTN folds you're not folding this hand and should just put the rest of your chips in on the flop. You could be up against another flush draw which decreases your equity quite a bit if it stays 3 handed.

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Open shoving or CRAI on the flop? Why does it matter if BTN has me covered to do this?

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I'm for the saying CRAI after the raise. The reason I mentioned BTN's stack is say all three opponents had 100bb then 3 bet pushing the flop is probably fine b/c of all the dead money. I;m not sure I'd want to commit 160bbs here though.

Also I don't think preflop is standard for FR. It's OK if you're just mixing it up but to always raiser with mid suited aces after a limper in the HJ is pretty laggy. I don't raise A7s from the same position in 6 max.

I'd like it more from the button for CO. I think a suited connector is a better hand to raise from the HJ here after a limper although I haven't played much FR so I could be wrong.

ChrisV · #**1577** 10-12-2007, 11:30 AM

Re the A7ss, I wouldn't raise that hand from there - you're too far out of position. By raising you're trying to isolate and play it as a small pot hand but you get called and raised by guys in position too much. Fold and call are both OK. The opening up you do in cash games is always positional. I would rather raise T8o or something on the button after one limper than raise A7s from that seat.

One common misconception people have about NL hands is that the point of playing hands like suited aces and suited connectors is to hit a big hand like a straight or flush and take some guy's stack. That's only a small part of it. If you're raising with those type of hands, your plan should be to make a lot of your profits without a showdown. That's what I mean by trying to play it as a small pot hand.

On the flop, calling and folding that $6.25 could go either way. It depends on your read on the other players. Calling gets better the more true you think these statements are:

- CO won't reraise
- The other players will call the raise
- BB checkraising could be a lot of hands (i.e. isn't restricted to something like a set, which wrecks your hand a bit)

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #**1578** 10-12-2007, 11:41 AM

Thanks JG and CV. I think you found a major leak. I am playing very laggy.

Can you give me an idea of what hands (FR) to open with, call with and raise with in EP, MP, LP in cash games? I am openning/raising limpers a lot w/ sc, sg, connectors and gappers, as well as big aces. (opening w/ sc, gappers, etc; raising limpers in MP-LP with Axs, A8o+)

Jbrochu · #**1579** 10-12-2007, 01:32 PM

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Can you give me an idea of what hands (FR) to open with, call with and raise with in EP, MP, LP in cash games? I am openning/raising limpers a lot w/ sc, sg, connectors and gappers, as well as big aces. (opening w/ sc, gappers, etc; raising limpers in MP-LP with Axs, A8o+)

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Dr J, This is a very good post from SSNL that will help you think about playing these kinds of hands. There are some very good responses in the thread as well.

A couple of additional thoughts regarding that particular hand:

1) Even in 6 max you only want to isolate players that have a tendancy to limp often but give up easy post flop

2) Position matters a lot when doing this because because you want to be nearly certain to have position after the flop or it's just not worth it

3) People don't fold enough in NL25 - you should be more apt to play your hands in a straightforward manner

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #**1580** 10-12-2007, 01:39 PM

thanks!

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