$24: QQ + bubble +sitout shorty = barf - Page 2

dirtysanchez · #11 02-26-2007, 03:52 AM

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Fold PF? If anything call for set value.. its a minraise. The blinds are 150/300 and he made it 600. Even if you call here and fold on the flop you have 2000 left and the short stack will be hitting both blinds in the next hands. Just call and if anything don't get all in on a low flop. If this is bet hard or if UTG shoves just fold assuming he has KK or AA.

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raise size in relation to the blinds has 0 to do with whether you can call for set value...

i fold pre for reasons FH gave

Kevin8423 · #12 02-26-2007, 05:06 AM

So you are basing your pf fold on the fact that he could connect some card under your Q, get all in, then suckout? Does the value of this big hand winning against his non AA/KK hands not outweight the times he draws to suckout? I don't see why we can't risk 300 of our stack to see a flop and evaluate.

Edit: For blinds to even hit you shorty has to win his all ins with whatever hes dealt. If you really can narrow UTGs range to AA/KK then fold.. otherwise call here and fold to ugly flops. Unless you shove an A or K board you shouldn't be losing chips in an unfavorable situation and you have 1700 to beat the short stack of 70.

sippin_criss · #13 02-26-2007, 05:12 AM

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So you are basing your pf fold on the fact that he could connect some card under your Q, get all in, then suckout? Does the value of this big hand winning against his non AA/KK hands not outweight the times he draws to suckout? I don't see why we can't risk 300 of our stack to see a flop and evaluate.

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Since the shorty sitting out only has 70 chips we need a lot of equity in order to stick all our chips in. Like FH said, even if he calls and has 5 outs it isn't a great spot when we could have just folded pf and got itm. Also all this set value jibba-jabba, are you calling preflop with 22 as well?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Kevin8423 · #14 02-26-2007, 05:17 AM

QQ>22.. are you folding KK for the few times he has AA? Theres a reason you bet JJ+ in early levels and fold other PPs. We aren't all in preflop, this seem so weak to fold. Unless you call and are automatically pot committed you aren't in trouble. What ranges here can make this a bad call?

dirtysanchez · #15 02-26-2007, 05:19 AM

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QQ>22.. are you folding KK for the few times he has AA? Theres a reason you bet JJ+ in early levels and fold other PPs. We aren't all in preflop, this seem so weak to fold. Unless you call and are automatically pot committed you aren't in trouble. What ranges here can make this a bad call?

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kevin, its not about being ahead or behind, its that no starting hand can really give us enough equity to make up for the fact that we make the money 100% of the time by folding, and we still have a stack to play with.

Kevin8423 · #16 02-26-2007, 05:22 AM

I see what your saying but I don't see how the logic applies if we aren't all in preflop. We can evaluate and fold with 1700 chips.. even if we only call to see a flopped Q and fold all other communities we still get ITM.

Edit: QQ then basically is any random PP, and I don't think calling for set value is even that bad with any. Its only 1BB and its possible we will double up when when we hit this 1:7. Again, we are folding with 1700 in all situations we don't hit.

sippin_criss · #17 02-26-2007, 05:30 AM

If I shove preflop and he has AT and calls, that sucks since 30% of the time I am bubbling. If I flat call and shove a non A/K flop and he calls with a pair then I bust out about 20% of the time. This is bad. DUCY!!!

Kevin8423 · #18 02-26-2007, 05:33 AM

Of course it is bad....

We never shove pre or post flop unless we set. We call 1BB with our QQ to see a Q on flop. If we miss we fold and with our 1700 chips we watch the 70 chip shorty get blinded out so we are ITM. I don't know why everyone is on this all in on any street we can get it mentality.. just call and only play the set. Don't get it in on a non A/K flop since we are not wanting to chance getting knocked out here.

sippin_criss · #19 02-26-2007, 05:35 AM

OK, then we have to call with any pocket pair given your logic. Also, might as well call with suited connectors too because we might flop a pair or a sweet draw.

tozzy · #20 02-26-2007, 06:23 AM

anything but folding is bad.
it gets a lot closer with KK, but as long as you can a) bust out like 70:30 and b) cant rule out he has you actually beaten - furthermore, a minraise may indicate this - you can never call, raise, push this. there is no way we are not guaranteed money here.