AQ vs Kenna James and other donks

ShawnHoo · #1 10-05-2007, 06:05 PM

Good 40/80 game in LA. The game is pretty loose-passive for the most part, with very little 3-betting and lots of cold-calling, calling, and more calling. It's a change from what I'm used to at Commerce (this wasn't played there).

Kenna James is to my immediate right. I had heard about him being a limit donk, and so far he hasn't disappointed. I've seen him call 2.5 out of the SB with 7s5s and see a good 50% of flops. He's focused more on the Cubs game than our game, but he does come across as someone who's played a lot of poker and is good at keeping others at the table engaged/loose by using a lot of banter. Seems OK, if a bit loose-passive post-flop. He's commented to me several times about how tight I am (before he called one time, he said "I know YOU'D never play this hand!").

Anyway, that's my read on him. Assume for the purposes of this discussion that others in the hand are bad/loose/passive.

Two limpers, Kenna raises, I 3-bet with a red AQo. Blinds call, limpers call, Kenna calls.

Flop: KQ9 rainbow

Checked to Kenna, who bets and is quiet. My play?

What do we do if we have AK instead?

private joker · #2 10-05-2007, 06:18 PM

This spot sucks. How awful is folding here? It's a big pot and we have middle pair, but... I can't see getting through this minefield of a post-flop and come out with the best hand. Not with JT sitting there like a wolf.

With AK, I raise and try to thin the field, but play very cautiously if I get a lot of action.

gaming_mouse · #3 10-05-2007, 06:31 PM

This does not feel like a K at all. I am leaning toward call. The turn seems like a candidate for a free sd raise too. Given your image he won't 3b a draw.

DeathDonkey · #4 10-05-2007, 06:33 PM

Folding here is about as awful as awful gets. The pot is HUGE. I raise and hope for the best.

-DeathDonkey

DcifrThs · #5 10-05-2007, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding here is about as awful as awful gets. The pot is HUGE. I raise and hope for the best.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree.

you're getting like 19:1 here and the other players are described as loose passive (i.e. not gunna checkraise).

i'd call here and pop the turn...that way, you do stand the chance of knockign some players out (they are now getting >10:1 on your flop raise vs. 7.5:1 on a turn raise assuming they all call and kenna bets again), possibly get a free showdowdn.

if he 3bets you on the turn knowing how tight you are (given the way you played the hand) he has JT and you can fold.

by raising on the flop, he may tie you on 1 bet at a time since it isn't certain that a Q/A wouldn't win the pot for ya.

so i'd call his bet here and raise his turn bet. this might seem crazy but this is a huge pot and you want to increase your chances of winning it. you have a not vgood hand, but one that has outs and has a (very) small chance of currently being best. you also have a very tight image (though you won't get any folds due to pot size).

think about what kenna has here too. would he bet like that (after not capping) w/ QJs or QJ or KJ hoping you raise out the riff raff? i think he would. i dont' think he has AK or KK/QQ/etc. so your main worries are KQ/JT.

Barron

private joker · #6 10-05-2007, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding here is about as awful as awful gets. The pot is HUGE. I raise and hope for the best.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't think I would fold in the heat of the moment, but I'm wondering...

Anyway I think I would call in practice. Raising might invite some cold-callers and that doesn't give us much info about their hands. If we just call and see a checkraise sprung on us, we might know where we stand better.

But moreover, Kenna has just donked into a preflop 3-bettor and that shows a lot of strength to me. He plays loose PF, but it doesn't sound like he's just firing at will postflop with no hand. I'd probably call, cautiously, and take note of the action behind us. Then depending on the turn card and the action leading up to us, I'd either fold call or raise there.

drbk2 · #7 10-05-2007, 07:38 PM

I would raise here and fold to any aggression on later streets

ssmallz · #8 10-05-2007, 07:48 PM

Raising has merits if the opponents aren't going to chase a gutter for 2 cold in this spot but given the description of the players I call here and reevaluate on the turn.

ShawnHoo · #9 10-05-2007, 08:02 PM

Does it matter what Kenna thinks we have?

private joker · #10 10-05-2007, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter what Kenna thinks we have?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it does. He knows we're tight, and he may be overestimating. AQo is towards the bottom of our 3-betting range in his opinion, so he may think AA/KK/AK. If he has a K, our action will narrow our range down for him. If he has JT, he's counting on us to build a nice pot for him.

The only way I can imagine we're ahead of his donking range is if he has a marginal hand and thinks he can get us off JJ or something. But this flop hits so many cold-calling hands (for the other players) as well as a PFR right in the face. I'm pessimistic about our chances in the hand -- not so much that I won't call in this spot, but I think raising is way too optimistic.