Time for my KITN at the Venetian - and a good lesson

[soah]

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Perhaps it SHOULD be the rule that if a player clearly misunderstands the size of a bet, that his action is not binding. Often times a reasonable dealer or floor will do things this way, but this is by no means standard practice. In reality you may have misunderstood for very legitimate reasons, but still be forced to call in a far from reasonable manner. It's very much dependent on the house rules, and more often who is running/supervising the game (and how reasonable they are). In today's poker world that may be very far from reasonable, so always clarify, ALWAYS.

Al

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obviously you can never count on getting a good ruling, but Robert's Rules does include some stuff about protecting players that misunderstand the size of the bet they are facing

I've also seen quite a few times (almost always preflop though) where someone doesn't see a raise or a straddle or a reraise and puts out the wrong number of chips and is then allowed to take them back and fold

the fact that he verbalized his action, combined with further action behind him does muddy the water a bit

but, he never put 16 chips in the pot and the player acting after him has an obligation to make sure that the action ahead of him is correct before he acts precisely to avoid these "well he can't change his mind now that I've reraised!" type of situations

[JESSE G]

i would also advise against playing K9.

[Gonso]

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i would also advise against playing K9.

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lol

[BogusRogus]

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If you had spoke up the moment it became clear that the betting was still open, you might have had a better chance. It looks suspicious if you objected after the raises came after you.

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The problem with this was the speed with which this happened. I uttered the word "call" - making the reluctant crying call with the ignorant end of the straight thinking I was closing the action -again I'm looking across the table at 8 chips (and he wasn't going to his stack for more). As soon as I said "call" before I even completed putting out eight chips it was "reraise" and "reraise" bang bang... The player a few seats to my left and my cross table opponet realized EXACTLY what had happened to me. The left player even went on a self justifying rant on what a bad night he was having and how he would normally let me off the hook but he needed the chips...

The whole point is that, according to the dealer, if I had just placed eight chips out in front of me and then they said no - it's 16.. I could have done one of those "oh it was raised? ok I fold then" and pulled back my bets. You see this all the time when someone puts out 4 preflop and then they say "no so and so made it 8" and then they get to fold their hand.

Like George Castanza "My presence there can only hurt me", speaking at a poker table can only hurt you. oh yeah - and don't play K9 lol

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps it SHOULD be the rule that if a player clearly misunderstands the size of a bet, that his action is not binding. Often times a reasonable dealer or floor will do things this way, but this is by no means standard practice. In reality you may have misunderstood for very legitimate reasons, but still be forced to call in a far from reasonable manner. It's very much dependent on the house rules, and more often who is running/supervising the game (and how reasonable they are). In today's poker world that may be very far from reasonable, so always clarify, ALWAYS.

Al

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This came up yesterday for me. I was in a fairly big 1/2 pot at the Borgata and it was heads up on the turn. I A-high with 12 outs to the nuts. I was in the 8 seat and the other guy in the hand was in the 3 seat. I heard him say bet and heard him say 50. (In my defense this guy would frequently make a verbal action and then not do anything. As in say 'fold' then hold onto his cards looking at the other guy, or say bet and then not put chips in. It was annoying but he never angle-shot by doing it). I say call and put 50 chips in. When I look up the dealer tells me he had said 150.

I explained I didn't hear the one hundred part, and ask if my call is binding. The dealer thought about it for a second then said he'd let me take my 50 back and regroup since I'd heard wrong. The other guy was good and didn't make me stick with the call. Its nice not playing with dicks and with good dealers.

[Poshua]

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This came up yesterday for me. I was in a fairly big 1/2 pot at the Borgata and it was heads up on the turn. I A-high with 12 outs to the nuts. I was in the 8 seat and the other guy in the hand was in the 3 seat. I heard him say bet and heard him say 50. (In my defense this guy would frequently make a verbal action and then not do anything. As in say 'fold' then hold onto his cards looking at the other guy, or say bet and then not put chips in. It was annoying but he never angle-shot by doing it). I say call and put 50 chips in. When I look up the dealer tells me he had said 150.

I explained I didn't hear the one hundred part, and ask if my call is binding. The dealer thought about it for a second then said he'd let me take my 50 back and regroup since I'd heard wrong. The other guy was good and didn't make me stick with the call. Its nice not playing with dicks and with good dealers.

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This is substantially different from OP's situation, because there was no additional action after the call that you retracted. So, while there might have been a conceivable bit of angle-shot potential from your move (trying to elicit a reaction from the bettor) it's unlikely that a player in your position would gain much from faking a too-small bet. So there's no meaningful cost to game integrity to letting you take your bet back.

On the other hand, OP did not get a chance to retract his call until important new information had emerged: the player after him was raising and the next one was re-raising. If, for example, your opponent's $150 bet had put him all-in and he'd flipped up his cards upon hearing your call, the dealer might have hesitated more before letting you have it back.

[pig4bill]

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If you had spoke up the moment it became clear that the betting was still open, you might have had a better chance. It looks suspicious if you objected after the raises came after you.

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The problem with this was the speed with which this happened. I uttered the word "call" - making the reluctant crying call with the ignorant end of the straight thinking I was closing the action -again I'm looking across the table at 8 chips (and he wasn't going to his stack for more). As soon as I said "call" before I even completed putting out eight chips it was "reraise" and "reraise" bang bang... The player a few seats to my left and my cross table opponet realized EXACTLY what had happened to me. The left player even went on a self justifying rant on what a bad night he was having and how he would normally let me off the hook but he needed the chips...

The whole point is that, according to the dealer, if I had just placed eight chips out in front of me and then they said no - it's 16.. I could have done one of those "oh it was raised? ok I fold then" and pulled back my bets. You see this all the time when someone puts out 4 preflop and then they say "no so and so made it 8" and then they get to fold their hand.

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You should not have been able to pull back your bet. Once in the pot they stay in. But you would have lost 8 fewer chips.

[jjshabado]

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This came up yesterday for me. I was in a fairly big 1/2 pot at the Borgata and it was heads up on the turn. I A-high with 12 outs to the nuts. I was in the 8 seat and the other guy in the hand was in the 3 seat. I heard him say bet and heard him say 50. (In my defense this guy would frequently make a verbal action and then not do anything. As in say 'fold' then hold onto his cards looking at the other guy, or say bet and then not put chips in. It was annoying but he never angle-shot by doing it). I say call and put 50 chips in. When I look up the dealer tells me he had said 150.

I explained I didn't hear the one hundred part, and ask if my call is binding. The dealer thought about it for a second then said he'd let me take my 50 back and regroup since I'd heard wrong. The other guy was good and didn't make me stick with the call. Its nice not playing with dicks and with good dealers.

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This is substantially different from OP's situation, because there was no additional action after the call that you retracted.

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Right, I realize its different then OP. I was responding to the post about good dealers/floors not making a verbal declaration binding when its clear there was a misunderstanding. Obviously very situation dependent.

[jjshabado]

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If you had spoke up the moment it became clear that the betting was still open, you might have had a better chance. It looks suspicious if you objected after the raises came after you.

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The problem with this was the speed with which this happened. I uttered the word "call" - making the reluctant crying call with the ignorant end of the straight thinking I was closing the action -again I'm looking across the table at 8 chips (and he wasn't going to his stack for more). As soon as I said "call" before I even completed putting out eight chips it was "reraise" and "reraise" bang bang... The player a few seats to my left and my cross table opponet realized EXACTLY what had happened to me. The left player even went on a self justifying rant on what a bad night he was having and how he would normally let me off the hook but he needed the chips...

The whole point is that, according to the dealer, if I had just placed eight chips out in front of me and then they said no - it's 16.. I could have done one of those "oh it was raised? ok I fold then" and pulled back my bets. You see this all the time when someone puts out 4 preflop and then they say "no so and so made it 8" and then they get to fold their hand.

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You should not have been able to pull back your bet. Once in the pot they stay in. But you would have lost 8 fewer chips.

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I disagree. In a case like this if all players involve are understanding that there was a mix up and are satisfied with the resolution, I don't see why the call should be binding.

I made it very clear that I realized I'd [censored] up and would call if I had to. After I folded the other guy showed his set of 5s and said he didn't want me to call anyway.

As an aside this is a perfect example of how one mistake can make a fold into a call. If I'd been forced to keep the 50 in the pot it would have been an easy call since I would have been getting odds of 420 to 100 for my 12 outs instead of 370 to 150.

[pig4bill]

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If you had spoke up the moment it became clear that the betting was still open, you might have had a better chance. It looks suspicious if you objected after the raises came after you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this was the speed with which this happened. I uttered the word "call" - making the reluctant crying call with the ignorant end of the straight thinking I was closing the action -again I'm looking across the table at 8 chips (and he wasn't going to his stack for more). As soon as I said "call" before I even completed putting out eight chips it was "reraise" and "reraise" bang bang... The player a few seats to my left and my cross table opponet realized EXACTLY what had happened to me. The left player even went on a self justifying rant on what a bad night he was having and how he would normally let me off the hook but he needed the chips...

The whole point is that, according to the dealer, if I had just placed eight chips out in front of me and then they said no - it's 16.. I could have done one of those "oh it was raised? ok I fold then" and pulled back my bets. You see this all the time when someone puts out 4 preflop and then they say "no so and so made it 8" and then they get to fold their hand.

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You should not have been able to pull back your bet. Once in the pot they stay in. But you would have lost 8 fewer chips.

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I disagree. In a case like this if all players involve are understanding that there was a mix up and are satisfied with the resolution, I don't see why the call should be binding.

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That's been the rule at most rooms I've played in. Now if everyone in the pot wants to be nice and let you off the hook, that's a different story. But the rule has been the money stays in the pot.