How do I protect my hand?

jjshabado · #1 06-30-2007, 02:53 PM

Here's a hand I played last night at the Taj 3/6 game.

I'm in the BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

General Game Overview:
- Lots of bad players (Surprise!), the bad players have been getting lucky and a couple of the better players are frustrated. Not me though at this point because I'm still up.
- Surprisingly aggressive, but super loose.
- MP (2nd player to my left) is very solid (for 3/6). 
- The Button has been raising/reraising with not much in terms of a hand. He's just gambling preflop, not really playing poker.
- The two guys to the right of the button (henceforth: donks) are super loose and are the ones getting lucky. They'll call to the turn with anything (I mean just that). 
- Player on my left (from now on called lefty) is semi-tight for 3/6 but not very good. 

Preflop:
- Lefty calls 
- MP calls 
- Donks call 
- Button raises 
- SB folds
- I call, lefty calls 
- MP raises At this point I believe its more likely he has a good multi-way hand then a monster, although both are certainly possible. He seemed like a player that understood pot equity and the fact that if he had raised at the start nobody would have folded and it just as easily could have been 3-bet.
- Donks do what they do... call 
- Button caps 
- Everybody calls

Flop (6 players, 24SB): Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

- I check, with the knowledge that if it gets checked around button will definitely bet. If I check-raise, I know everyone will still call, but I'm pretty confident that if I then lead the turn when a blank falls lefty and MP will fold if they have nothing. Button might also fold the turn if he has nothing, since he's actually capable of folding a hand he has nothing. I have no hope of getting donks out of the hand before showdown.

- Everyone checks, button bets, I raise, everyone calls.

Turn (6 players, 18BB): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

- I bet out.
- Lefty calls
- MP folds
- Donks call
- Button folds
- So it played out kind of as I'd hoped. Now I'm praying for another blank, its extremely likely I have the best hand at this point.

River (4 players, 22BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

- Not a great card.
- I check since I think its likely one of my 3 opponents has an A.
- Everyone checks to the 2nd donk who grabs 6 chips. I immediately grab 6 chips to make a crying call. He sees this and checks.

Questions:
- Was there a better way to protect my hand? In a pot this size, could it have been correct to just call the flop, and hope to checkraise button on a safe turn. I'm pretty confident that it would have been checked around again, and he would have bet. Obviously I don't know thats what would have happened, but I think its likely.

- Suggestions on the river? Besids grabbing my chips that fast since it its discouraging the weak bet/bluffs. This is something I do a lot and I'm trying to stop doing.

- Other suggestions?

talking toaster · #2 06-30-2007, 03:47 PM

I don't think you should wait until the turn. If you wait until the turn to check-raise, you would run the risk of giving a free card, since most players in last position probably won't bet with anything you can beat on the turn with 4 players. That's especially true for a capper. He probably has a pair of at least jacks, AK, or AQ. I don't think AK would bet on the turn, and check-raising AA, KK, or AQ would be a disaster. Jacks might bet it, but that's all you could count on.

Instead of thinking about it as protecting your hand, think of those calls with some sort of Ace as bad draws that build your pot. Any ace without a king, 9, or 2 has just 3 outs, so if they call your flop check-raise, that was a bad play that you benefit from. The other possible draws are the straight draw, a second pair draw, or a set draw. Even a gutshot would probably see the river because of the size of the pot, and a set draw would see the turn if you wait until then to check-raise. The second-pair draw really depends on the player, but a flop check-raise will make that one pay a big enough price for you.

If your opponents are the type who might call on the river with a hand lower than yours, consider betting the river. Since you would be putting a bet in anyways if somebody else bets with an ace, this bet at least gets money in if one of them has a lower pair or might even make a better queen fold. If raised, fold, except against a maniac. If your opponents are tight-passive, don't bet because there's a chance you'd see a free showdown against some ace.

Niediam · #3 06-30-2007, 04:43 PM

I'd go with the wait for the turn method if you are sure that button with fire again.

As played bet the river for value and fold to a raise.

BigBadBabar · #4 06-30-2007, 05:24 PM

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donk...who grabs 6 chips. I immediately grab 6 chips to make a crying call. He sees this and checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

the best secret advice ever that i stole from mike caro:

if you're going to call this bet, don't make any move toward your chips. he's gonna bet hands that beat you anyway, and you're gonna call them anyway. if you just sit there he's gonna bet hands that you beat, like bluffs or worse pairs. and you're gonna call them anyway too, so you pick off bluffs and win more monies more often by calmly waiting!

jjshabado · #5 06-30-2007, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should wait until the turn. If you wait until the turn to check-raise, you would run the risk of giving a free card, since most players in last position probably won't bet with anything you can beat on the turn with 4 players. That's especially true for a capper. He probably has a pair of at least jacks, AK, or AQ. I don't think AK would bet on the turn, and check-raising AA, KK, or AQ would be a disaster. Jacks might bet it, but that's all you could count on.

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This hand was very read-dependent. Button (who capped) could have almost anything here. He'll bet when its checked to him most of the time, because thats what he thinks a good poker player does.

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Instead of thinking about it as protecting your hand, think of those calls with some sort of Ace as bad draws that build your pot. Any ace without a king, 9, or 2 has just 3 outs, so if they call your flop check-raise, that was a bad play that you benefit from. The other possible draws are the straight draw, a second pair draw, or a set draw. Even a gutshot would probably see the river because of the size of the pot, and a set draw would see the turn if you wait until then to check-raise. The second-pair draw really depends on the player, but a flop check-raise will make that one pay a big enough price for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the guys on the flop were getting 30:2 or 15:1. They're actually only making a tiny mistake to call there with ace high. If they have a pair already they're definitely getting the odds to cold call the flop 2-bet. Even on the turn its likely they'd have the odds to call with say a single 9 (although not with ace high). There's really nothing I can do on the flop to make it a mistake to call. Thats not true on the turn. If the flop is kept to a single bet, and I can checkraise most of the field for 2 big bets, it becomes a bigger mistake to call with some of those hands.

[ QUOTE ]

If your opponents are the type who might call on the river with a hand lower than yours, consider betting the river. Since you would be putting a bet in anyways if somebody else bets with an ace, this bet at least gets money in if one of them has a lower pair or might even make a better queen fold. If raised, fold, except against a maniac. If your opponents are tight-passive, don't bet because there's a chance you'd see a free showdown against some ace.

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I think you're right, and I should have bet the river. Although there's no way I'll bet/fold here. None of the players were tight enough to make me fold to a raise getting something ridiculous like 25-30:1. I don't know if there's a 3/6 player in the world that I could make that fold to.

jjshabado · #6 06-30-2007, 05:28 PM

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As played bet the river for value and fold to a raise.

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No way I could make that fold. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BigBadBabar · #7 06-30-2007, 05:28 PM

lol @ betfolding this river

jjshabado · #8 06-30-2007, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

the best secret advice ever that i stole from mike caro:

if you're going to call this bet, don't make any move toward your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. This tip alone has paid for his book a number of times over, and thats taking into account the fact that I still forget to follow the advice at times.

talking toaster · #9 06-30-2007, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As played bet the river for value and fold to a raise.

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No way I could make that fold. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Even at 30:1, I would still bet/fold on river. There are only two types of villains who would bluff-raise here: either the habitual bluffer or the creative type trying to take down a big pot. I'm assuming that previous play eliminates the first type of opponent.

The two donks, being donks, wouldn't try this type of thing, and the MP player, since he acts before the donks, probably wouldn't do it since he would be raising into 2 donks plus the bettor. If I get raised on that river, I'd give 50:1 that the raiser has at least an ace.

BigBadBabar · #10 06-30-2007, 06:05 PM

lol just check and let donks bluff at the scare card. dunno if you guys play live but folding a pot this big for one bet is beyond awful.