A high, getting to showdown...

krishan · #1 02-27-2006, 10:42 PM

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Villain is 51/24/1.6/39 over 3K hands. riverhan for those playing the games.

Here are my notes file on him, "doesn't auto bet after sb complete, will bluff flop w/k high, donks flopped flush draw"

None particularly relevant to this hand.

Krishan

Surf · #2 02-28-2006, 12:15 AM

I didn't vote yet.

There are a bunch of factors to consider, IMO.

-what hands does villain peel with here? he looks fishy but some fishy PF guys play semi-sane postflop
-is villain capable of bluffing turn + riv when checked to? I'd assume yes given the line you took.
-is villain capable of bluffraising the turn with worse hands? is it enough to be concerned about (ie, when he calls the flop he's usually floating to raise the turn, not peeling to fold the turn)

etc.

I need more info. As a default, assuming he's overaggro, bad, and doesn't read hands terribly well, then c-c, c-c is good. If he's capable of thought and realizes your hand is an obvious ace-high, and you aren't folding it, then c-c, c-f is good.

Surf

Spicymoose · #3 02-28-2006, 12:21 AM

I like your line. When you bet the turn, you get raised a ton, especially against this villain, and I hate being in that spot. We must fold, yet I know our hand is better than his often enough. On top of not having to be faced with the turn raise, we get value out of all of his week hands that he peeled the flop for a single bet, but would have folded the turn.

I kind of like Surfbullets idea of c/c, then c/f, because our hand does seem a bit transparent. But against a guy this agro, I don't think he thinks enough, and he will fire that river bluff enough of the time.

sweetjazz · #4 02-28-2006, 12:38 AM

How often does villain fastplay on the flop with made hands? with draws? This is the kind of situation where I feel like I could make the right move if I had played against this villain live for as many hands as you have played against him online, but online the games go so fast there is not time to notice these patterns and register them.

Your line is slightly +EV if he is a habitual bluffer, but probably pretty -EV if he in fact does give up with a lot of his weaker hands.

As long as you have the fortitude not to get really mad when he shows you 33 or A4, I think your play is fine.

What would you have done if he had raised the flop instead of just calling?

Nate tha\\\' Great · #5 02-28-2006, 05:27 AM

Nate's Poker Axiom #214 is that a plan of check-calling both big streets after having the lead on the flop is *almost* always wrong.

There are times to play it this way, but they usually involve a LOT of history between you and your opponent, or a board that improves in a way conducive to bluffs/semibluffs.

Neither of those apply here. The fold decision is very clear if you're raised, and that IMO makes the bet decision very clear.

DeathDonkey · #6 02-28-2006, 05:40 AM

Nate,

I think you are wrong here because of the current state of the Party poker shorthanded 20/40 games. For instance, I would be quite uncomfortable bet/folding this turn vs. the opponent described. I suspect Krishan is as well. I have had good success in games this limit and higher shorthanded check/calling both big streets vs. opponents as loose aggressive as the one described. They simply cannot stop bluffing no matter how obvious you make it that you are calling down.

Krishan: I think that bet/calling the turn needs to be included in your poll.

-DeathDonkey

Dane S · #7 02-28-2006, 05:49 AM

I like your line against a lot of guys. It's very player specific but there are definitely many players with these stats who you cannot bet/fold against on this turn--they are bluffraising way too often.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #8 02-28-2006, 05:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

For instance, I would be quite uncomfortable bet/folding this turn vs. the opponent described.
-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think the opponent's range is here those times that he raises you on the turn?

DeathDonkey · #9 02-28-2006, 06:24 AM

Any king or 8, 77+, any flush draw or OESD. Alot of ace highs. Sometimes random stuff like 9T, QJ. Hmm, I think based on that range I don't need pokerstove to tell me our hand isn't looking super. Ooh what about the value we get out of letting him bluff two streets if he was going to fold? Clearly we would prefer he fold but collecting 2 bb and we still have a chance to improve on the river ourself can't be that bad.

-DeathDonkey

Nate tha\\\' Great · #10 02-28-2006, 06:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Any king or 8, 77+, any flush draw or OESD. Alot of ace highs. Sometimes random stuff like 9T, QJ. Hmm, I think based on that range I don't need pokerstove to tell me our hand isn't looking super. Ooh what about the value we get out of letting him bluff two streets if he was going to fold? Clearly we would prefer he fold but collecting 2 bb and we still have a chance to improve on the river ourself can't be that bad.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't think this is the kind of board where an opponent is liable to make a lot of plays on the turn. Hands like QT or Ace-high are going to hate the king-medium-medium board after yielding the preflop momentum.