3 players in the hand 1 disqualified

[Buckeyes]

Cash game, Hand goes to the river. Player A bets 20 Player B calls and Player C raises to 120...... Player A then goes all-in for 675 and before player Player B can call or fold his hand Player C turns a card over and shows the table. Floor is called over as table erupts. After 5 minutes of sorting out what happened floor rules Player C has a dead hand and gives a warning that if it happens again Player C could be asked to leave. Note that there was two 3's on the board and the card Player C showed was a third 3. Floor also said that if it were a tournament the hand would not of been a dead hand.

Was the ruling correct in this situation?

[psandman]

The hand should not be dead. What does killing the hand accomplish?

Either warn player C or kick him out, but you don't kill the hand.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]

Cash game, Hand goes to the river. Player A bets 20 Player B calls and Player C raises to 120...... Player A then goes all-in for 675 and before player Player B can call or fold his hand Player C turns a card over and shows the table. Floor is called over as table erupts. After 5 minutes of sorting out what happened floor rules Player C has a dead hand and gives a warning that if it happens again Player C could be asked to leave. Note that there was two 3's on the board and the card Player C showed was a third 3. Floor also said that if it were a tournament the hand would not of been a dead hand.

Was the ruling correct in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it would depend on the room. If they have a rule that kills hands for no reason other than showing cards than yes, it is dead. If it is most of the world then no it is not dead.

[slik]

Anyone that knows anything about poker knows that the reason people can't show hands prematurely in tournaments is because even people that folded preflop can be directly effected by the end result (move up / down in prizes) [the floor has no common sense in mixing this up]. I would imagine in most places a warning would be given to the allin player not to do it again, and play is carried on.

[Rottersod]

It's amazing that the floor could misinterpret the rules so badly. I hate to keep harping on this point but this is just another example of a casino stealing a players money and the player having no recourse. In what other situation would we allow a business to simply give our money to another person just because a manager said we had to?

Randy, as someone who has worked in casino's for a long time and has read all the posts here do you think that there is any way possible to get casino's to have some kind of accountability for their employee's decision making?

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
...do you think that there is any way possible to get casino's to have some kind of accountability for their employee's decision making?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the question was addressed to RR, but I'd like to take a shot at it:

Rule #1 in every poker room is, "The decision of the floor is final." If you don't consent to abide by Rule #1, go play someplace else.

Once you give that consent, however, you are completely at their mercy.

As long as the house has this disclaimer to lean on, nothing will be done to change the way things are run.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Rule #1 in every poker room is, "The decision of the floor is final." If you don't consent to abide by Rule #1, go play someplace else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some jurisdictions have gaming regulations where gaming can force the casino to do the right thing.

With something like what happened in the OP I would not play in that casino. Sometimes complaining can help. I was working as tournament coordinator at a casino in the south where most of the staff was grossly under trained. The tournament director ruled a player was obligated to call an all in when he was on the floor looking for a chip he dropped and said "call" (from the floor) when he was unaware there had been a raise. When the dealer tried to get the chips into the center he immediately objected and said he didn't know there was a raise. This guest found the casino manager and after asking me about it we decided to pay the guest's entry into the next day's event.

[ QUOTE ]
...do you think that there is any way possible to get casino's to have some kind of accountability for their employee's decision making?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I have said don't play there, but until enough players are tired of bad decisions this won't have any impact. The underlying problem is making decision is a very small part of a floor person's job. I work close to 40 hours a week in an 18 table room and I would say I make fewer than 10 floor decisions in a week and each of those takes less than a minute. The rest of the time is spent doing things that require no real knowledge of poker.

Another thing that can happen is the floor can make a perfectly correct decision that runs counter to what has happened in the past in a casino. I remember a decision I made long ago. A player was eating chicken wings at the table and his mouth was full at showdown. He made a motion with his hand (the one connected to his arm) to the dealer. The dealer took his cards and was putting them into the muck as the player chocked out "no, turn them over." I happened to be close the table and saw most of this. The dealer still had the two cards in his hand so I told him to give the player back his cards and the table went crazy that they had "touched the muck." I walked away form the table and a 2+2er told me that nobody else that works there would have given him back his cards. I started to explain about to him about being retrievable and he said he wasn't disagreeing, just pointing it out.

This points to the real problem. The rules and procedures can only be as good as the person at the top. I know of people that have been working in poker for over 10 years that are still clueless. They have never worked with someone that had a good understanding of the rules, so they had nobody to learn from. Right now I probably lead the world in complaints to gaming because about once a week I explain to someone that we act in the interest of fairness and we won't be taking away someone's pot because you would like the best hand ruled dead. Back to the OP there are probably a number of people that truly believe they should kill the guys hand to "teach him a lesson."

Sorry for the aimless post and lack of editing, but i have to get ready for work.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
Rule #1 in every poker room is, "The decision of the floor is final." If you don't consent to abide by Rule #1, go play someplace else.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's a fine myth spread by dealers, poker floors, and poker floor supervisors. It'd be convenient for the floor if true, but we all know it's not really as true as they'd like it to be. I will never allow a poker floor to steal from me.

[pfapfap]

RR, please come run a poker room near me. Or at least train everybody in the existing rooms.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rule #1 in every poker room is, "The decision of the floor is final." If you don't consent to abide by Rule #1, go play someplace else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some jurisdictions have gaming regulations where gaming can force the casino to do the right thing.

With something like what happened in the OP I would not play in that casino. Sometimes complaining can help. I was working as tournament coordinator at a casino in the south where most of the staff was grossly under trained. The tournament director ruled a player was obligated to call an all in when he was on the floor looking for a chip he dropped and said "call" (from the floor) when he was unaware there had been a raise. When the dealer tried to get the chips into the center he immediately objected and said he didn't know there was a raise. This guest found the casino manager and after asking me about it we decided to pay the guest's entry into the next day's event.

[ QUOTE ]
...do you think that there is any way possible to get casino's to have some kind of accountability for their employee's decision making?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I have said don't play there, but until enough players are tired of bad decisions this won't have any impact. The underlying problem is making decision is a very small part of a floor person's job. I work close to 40 hours a week in an 18 table room and I would say I make fewer than 10 floor decisions in a week and each of those takes less than a minute. The rest of the time is spent doing things that require no real knowledge of poker.

Another thing that can happen is the floor can make a perfectly correct decision that runs counter to what has happened in the past in a casino. I remember a decision I made long ago. A player was eating chicken wings at the table and his mouth was full at showdown. He made a motion with his hand (the one connected to his arm) to the dealer. The dealer took his cards and was putting them into the muck as the player chocked out "no, turn them over." I happened to be close the table and saw most of this. The dealer still had the two cards in his hand so I told him to give the player back his cards and the table went crazy that they had "touched the muck." I walked away form the table and a 2+2er told me that nobody else that works there would have given him back his cards. I started to explain about to him about being retrievable and he said he wasn't disagreeing, just pointing it out.

This points to the real problem. The rules and procedures can only be as good as the person at the top. I know of people that have been working in poker for over 10 years that are still clueless. They have never worked with someone that had a good understanding of the rules, so they had nobody to learn from. Right now I probably lead the world in complaints to gaming because about once a week I explain to someone that we act in the interest of fairness and we won't be taking away someone's pot because you would like the best hand ruled dead. Back to the OP there are probably a number of people that truly believe they should kill the guys hand to "teach him a lesson."

Sorry for the aimless post and lack of editing, but i have to get ready for work.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good reply Randy and I only wish you would come back to LA and get hired as a trainer by the rooms here.

As for speaking with our feet I guess I have already done that by playing many more home games that are structured like card rooms. If anyone at one of these games had tried to pull a ruling like OP's I would have simply refused, taken my chips, cashed them in and found another game or discussed it with the host. No chance of getting arrested or detained by casino security and having my chips confiscated.