Bad Beat Jackpots = Zero Sum?

[fishyak]

1) On the math, IMO, BBJ's are -EV because less than the sum collected goes back to the player. OTOH,
A) It is VERY clear that BBJ's ATTRACT people to our games. I even try to play during 2X JP times.
B) A number of people who post here have had signficant additions to their bankrolls from JPs. This made it easier for them to "move up" faster.
C) My two table shares this year were worth almost $4/hr. (or .5BB/hr if you prefer) I don't include this $ in my poker stats.
D) So overall, for the slight -EV (and some casinos do fund some of their JP's so those ARE +EV), I like what they do for the action. If you play a lot, you'll catch at least your share and possibly more. No reason for "hate" here.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
1) On the math, IMO, BBJ's are -EV because less than the sum collected goes back to the player.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not true in Nevada. Gaming regulations prohibit them from raking more than 10% from a game, and raking the BBJ/HHJ drop would put 'em over 10%.

[Poshua]

[ QUOTE ]
Gaming regulations prohibit them from raking more than 10% from a game, and raking the BBJ/HHJ drop would put 'em over 10%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that only be true if the $1 that constitutes the jackpot drop is also counted toward the raked pot?

For example, take a 1/2NL game with a 10% to $4 rake. The last dollar is taken out at $40, and the jackpot drop is taken out at $20.

Consider a gross pot of $40. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $39. Only $3 got taken out for rake, because pot after jackpot drop < $40. Total rake is $3 + $.10 that will be raked from the jackpot. $3.10 < 10% * $40.

Now consider a gross pot of $41. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $40. As a result, $4 was raked from the pot. Total rake is $4 + $.10 on the jackpot. $4.10 = 10% * $41.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gaming regulations prohibit them from raking more than 10% from a game, and raking the BBJ/HHJ drop would put 'em over 10%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that only be true if the $1 that constitutes the jackpot drop is also counted toward the raked pot?

For example, take a 1/2NL game with a 10% to $4 rake. The last dollar is taken out at $40, and the jackpot drop is taken out at $20.

Consider a gross pot of $40. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $39. Only $3 got taken out for rake, because pot after jackpot drop < $40. Total rake is $3 + $.10 that will be raked from the jackpot. $3.10 < 10% * $40.

Now consider a gross pot of $41. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $40. As a result, $4 was raked from the pot. Total rake is $4 + $.10 on the jackpot. $4.10 = 10% * $41.

[/ QUOTE ]
That ain't the way they count the pot anyplace I've ever played. Pot hits $10, and $2 comes out--1 for jackpot, 1 for rake, leaving $8 in the pot. When $10 more goes in, $1 comes out.

I suppose yes, if the house does it your way, they could probably get away with it. If at $40 $3 comes out for rake, fine, they can take 10% of the $1 jackpot and be legal and make 10 cents. Or they can just not rake the jackpot and take the full $1 rake at $40. Not sure that's a good trade off for them, but maybe. Does kinda seem like it might make 'em a bit more, at least on games that regularly get >$40 pots. It'd be sorta like raking with dimes instead of dollars, only raking with a single dime only when the jackpot is dropped.

Hope the Harrah's execs aren't reading this thread. If we see 10% of the jackpot drop being raked next year and dimes being used for the rake, we'll know where they got the idea.

[Mr. AtlanticCity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hope the Harrah's execs aren't reading this thread. If we see 10% of the jackpot drop being raked next year and dimes being used for the rake, we'll know where they got the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to be concerned, Harrah's executives can not read.

[Poshua]

[ QUOTE ]

I suppose yes, if the house does it your way, they could probably get away with it. If at $40 $3 comes out for rake, fine, they can take 10% of the $1 jackpot and be legal and make 10 cents. Or they can just not rake the jackpot and take the full $1 rake at $40. Not sure that's a good trade off for them, but maybe. Does kinda seem like it might make 'em a bit more, at least on games that regularly get >$40 pots. It'd be sorta like raking with dimes instead of dollars, only raking with a single dime only when the jackpot is dropped.

Hope the Harrah's execs aren't reading this thread. If we see 10% of the jackpot drop being raked next year and dimes being used for the rake, we'll know where they got the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think my way would make them 90 cents less only on pots of exactly $20, $30, or $40, and 10 cents more on any other pot of $21 or more. My guess is that would mean slightly more rake to the casino so, yeah, I hope the execs aren't reading.

Similarly, Mandalay Bay used to (still does?) break dollars into quarters in order to take the rake in 25 cent increments. At the time, I didn't realize the no-rounding-up rule, so it seemed really silly to me; now I understand, but it's still [censored] annoying.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I suppose yes, if the house does it your way, they could probably get away with it. If at $40 $3 comes out for rake, fine, they can take 10% of the $1 jackpot and be legal and make 10 cents. Or they can just not rake the jackpot and take the full $1 rake at $40. Not sure that's a good trade off for them, but maybe. Does kinda seem like it might make 'em a bit more, at least on games that regularly get >$40 pots. It'd be sorta like raking with dimes instead of dollars, only raking with a single dime only when the jackpot is dropped.

Hope the Harrah's execs aren't reading this thread. If we see 10% of the jackpot drop being raked next year and dimes being used for the rake, we'll know where they got the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think my way would make them 90 cents less only on pots of exactly $20, $30, or $40, and 10 cents more on any other pot of $21 or more. My guess is that would mean slightly more rake to the casino so, yeah, I hope the execs aren't reading.

Similarly, Mandalay Bay used to (still does?) break dollars into quarters in order to take the rake in 25 cent increments. At the time, I didn't realize the no-rounding-up rule, so it seemed really silly to me; now I understand, but it's still [censored] annoying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Long ago there were dimes on the table for rake. Also there used to be a 10 cent ante in 3-6 hold'em.

[fatshark]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gaming regulations prohibit them from raking more than 10% from a game, and raking the BBJ/HHJ drop would put 'em over 10%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that only be true if the $1 that constitutes the jackpot drop is also counted toward the raked pot?

For example, take a 1/2NL game with a 10% to $4 rake. The last dollar is taken out at $40, and the jackpot drop is taken out at $20.

Consider a gross pot of $40. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $39. Only $3 got taken out for rake, because pot after jackpot drop < $40. Total rake is $3 + $.10 that will be raked from the jackpot. $3.10 < 10% * $40.

Now consider a gross pot of $41. $1 got taken out for the jackpot at $20, leaving $40. As a result, $4 was raked from the pot. Total rake is $4 + $.10 on the jackpot. $4.10 = 10% * $41.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a pot of $35 or more, the house rounds up and the rake would be $4. So the information is not correct.
The BBJ collection can be taken at what ever the house decides is a qualifying pot.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
On a pot of $35 or more, the house rounds up and the rake would be $4.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhhh... Not even slightly true in Nevada. They CANNOT rake more than 10% ever, and they don't get to round. They rake $3 at $39, $4 at $40. I believe Posh got it completely right.

[fatshark]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On a pot of $35 or more, the house rounds up and the rake would be $4.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhhh... Not even slightly true in Nevada. They CANNOT rake more than 10% ever, and they don't get to round. They rake $3 at $39, $4 at $40. I believe Posh got it completely right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really, thanks for that, I had no idea. The few times I spot checked to confirm that I guess the dealers got a little "pinchy"!
How about the commission/service charge on player's pools? can they do that too in NV?