Drawing Question

[uley]

Very new to the game and trying to figure out a simpler way of make correct calls to flush draws, straights, etc.. if I understand this correctly it goes like this - say I'm on a flush draw after the flop comes down - giving me nine outs or 4.22 to 1 odds for my hand on the flop for the turn - lets say there is $40.00 in the pot - guy ahead of me bets $10.00 giving me pot odds of five to one - I call because the pott odds are higher than my odds to make my hand - or as a rule of thumb if I have to make a call for a flush draw on the flop for the turn the bet that I am calling has to be at least 4.22 times as high as the bet itself - thanks for any input or advice!

[knightmare_37]

That's the general idea, correct. There are also implied odds, though. These are odds that you'll make a little bit more when villain bets the turn/river. This generally gives you a little more odds to call but not too much, as usually when the 3rd flush card comes the action in a hand shuts down hard. Also where are you getting 4.22 to 1 odds?

[uley]

Thanks for the response - I got the 4.22 from an odds chart - is 4.22 incorrect?

[PantsOnFire]

Yes, you have the concept correct. However there are other considerations when drawing, espcially in NL:

1. You have to be careful if your draw is not to the nuts. A king or queen high flush draw might be against a better flush draw or if somebody has the bare A, they could get the fourth flush card on the river. The same applies to straight draws. Note that JT always makes the nut straight.

2. When drawing to a straight on a two flush board, it is possible that two of your straight cards will make someone a flush. This is where you introduce the concept of discounted outs where you need slightly better pods odds to continue.

3. In NL, implied odds are always possible. So even if you have slightly less odds than you need, you can call and make it up by collecting a bet when you make your hand. It takes a lot of skill to accurately guage what your implied odds are. Sometimes they are zero.

4. Sometimes, your draws are stronger than they appear. A nut flush draw may also win a hand if the ace pairs so you may have 12 outs here. As well, straight and flush draws when you have a pair make your hand stronger since you might miss your draw but still make two pair or trips. However, this is dangerous with hands like connectors because if you make two pair, it usually means the board is coordinated and somebody could have a straight.

5. As well, don't forget about the option of betting or raising your draws as a semi-bluff. This is usually better when you have a draw to the nuts as opposed to a weak draw for obvious reasons. However, if the fold component of the semi-bluff is high, then go ahead and fire.

[Alkaline]

Multiple number of outs by 2 and add 2. So 9x2+2=20. 20% chance of making your flush with one card to come. So you should call about a bet about 20% of the pot. Thats with one card to come. A lot of people will call pre turn and when their card doesn't come they fold before the river. Also read what Pants said. He put some good stuff in there.

[uley]

thanks for the responses

[Mr Rat]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you have the concept correct. However there are other considerations when drawing, espcially in NL:

1. You have to be careful if your draw is not to the nuts. A king or queen high flush draw might be against a better flush draw or if somebody has the bare A, they could get the fourth flush card on the river. The same applies to straight draws. Note that JT always makes the nut straight.

2. When drawing to a straight on a two flush board, it is possible that two of your straight cards will make someone a flush. This is where you introduce the concept of discounted outs where you need slightly better pods odds to continue.

3. In NL, implied odds are always possible. So even if you have slightly less odds than you need, you can call and make it up by collecting a bet when you make your hand. It takes a lot of skill to accurately guage what your implied odds are. Sometimes they are zero.

4. Sometimes, your draws are stronger than they appear. A nut flush draw may also win a hand if the ace pairs so you may have 12 outs here. As well, straight and flush draws when you have a pair make your hand stronger since you might miss your draw but still make two pair or trips. However, this is dangerous with hands like connectors because if you make two pair, it usually means the board is coordinated and somebody could have a straight.

5. As well, don't forget about the option of betting or raising your draws as a semi-bluff. This is usually better when you have a draw to the nuts as opposed to a weak draw for obvious reasons. However, if the fold component of the semi-bluff is high, then go ahead and fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good post...thanks for sharing this!

[well named]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that JT always makes the nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps there is some context i'm missing, but this seems incorrect to me, for example JT on a 8-9-T-J-Q board does not make the nut straight. Apologies if I am misunderstanding you.

[Ncoe]

What he says only applies when you get to use both of your cards.

[well named]

Ah, that makes sense. Clearly it doesn't matter since my straights always get counterfeited anyway [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]