What to people have against Razz?

[phydaux]

Thanks to the internet, I have become one of "those" players.

I play hold'em well, and other poker varients not at all.

Currently I am a NL cash game specialist. I enjoy playing my chosen game, but I see the current NL cash game trend as unsustainable. Sooner of later the fish will all either go broke or look for a different game where they won't go broke as fast.

Thanks to the internet, I forsee the up and coming game to be HORSE.

The thing is, though, that I see a lot of HOSE games being played on the internet. Naturally HOSE is just HORSE without a round of Razz. But what do people have against including Razz?

From what I understand, Razz is a game that an expert player can play very close to mathmaticly perfectly. Seems like any "serious" player would want to include a few hands of Razz in every rotation.

What do people have against Razz?

[Biggle10]

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The thing is, though, that I see a lot of HOSE games being played on the internet.

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I just checked PS and there are 8 HORSE tables and one HOSE table with 3 players.

[Al Mirpuri]

Most players are fish and why would they want to include a game that a pro could play close to mathematicallly perfect. Moreover, it is very easy to know where you are in Razz so no big pots should develop in it. Add to that the fact that your hand can get worse not just in relation to the others but absolutely A23 ends up as A23KKKK and you have A23KK for low....

[GiantBuddha]

It's boring. You can make any hands. Just numbers. Most of what's interesting about poker is reading hands. That's the allure and much of the skill. There's probably the least hand reading in razz of any major variant.

[SteelWheel]

I kind of like Razz--but then again, I also like triple draw, hi/lo stud, etc. However, it is true that a razz game at a given limit will tend to play a little bit smaller than a stud game at the same limit--after all, everyone is sort of aiming at the same pool of low cards. It's not like stud, where one player is on a high pair trying to make two pair or trips, while a second is trying to catch middle-ish cards to fill his straight, while the third is attempting to catch diamonds for a flush. So it's understandable that the game is a bit "drier" and will tend to play a bit smaller.

A few years back, when the Series was still at Binion's, the live razz games would sometimes be played with a "high card brings it in, low card must raise" rule. This created a fair bit more action, and was a lot of fun. This structure created many situations where the guy with the open King on 3rd would feel stiffed in and would chase--more multiway pots. Good stuff.

I hear that Casino Arizona also used to spread razz with this structure--don't know if that's still the case.

[*TT*]

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Most of what's interesting about poker is reading hands. That's the allure and much of the skill. There's probably the least hand reading in razz of any major variant.

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You have no idea how ignorant that statement is. Razz is probably one of the easiest games for hand reading, why do you think Sklansky used more razz examples than anything else in Theory of Poker?

OP- Razz took a nose dive in 2003 after the WSOP broadcast because it was depicted as a game of bad beats that was excruciating. Prior to that Razz was still a popular game in mixes, and could still be found in the higher limits. In the past two years Razz is having a renaissance, good players are flocking to it but they have forgotten the lessons taught by the old razz and lowball masters - and they generally play like fishes (tough thinking fishes, but fishes none the less). In 2006 everyone thought the razz field at the WSOP would be tiny since the game was dying, in reality it was one of the celebrity player packed events and that has helped the slow road to revival for the game.

also - this thread belongs in the stud forum, which is 1/4 razz posts lately.

[phydaux]

I thought this was more of a HORSE question....

I sent an e-mail to Wilson SW and asked them if they had plans to make a Razz product, and if they did, did they plan to make a HORSE product. I really see a market.

I don't know if anyone (other than probably Mason) agrees with me that the current NL cash game boom is unsustainable. And when NL is over and limit reigns supreme again, I don't know if anyone agrees with me that HORSE will be the dominant game, particularly on the internet.

All I know is I'm enjoying the NL cash game craze now. Wonder how long it will last and when the change over will be?

[*TT*]

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I thought this was more of a HORSE question....

I sent an e-mail to Wilson SW and asked them if they had plans to make a Razz product, and if they did, did they plan to make a HORSE product. I really see a market.

I don't know if anyone (other than probably Mason) agrees with me that the current NL cash game boom is unsustainable. And when NL is over and limit reigns supreme again, I don't know if anyone agrees with me that HORSE will be the dominant game, particularly on the internet.

All I know is I'm enjoying the NL cash game craze now. Wonder how long it will last and when the change over will be?

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Horse stuff has historically ended up in the stud forums, but thats not a hard rule of course.

I dont think Mason agrees with you anymore, now that capped buyin NL games have come its going to be a long time before it NL slows down. I agree rotations will become more popular, but not as popular as you think.

As for Wilson - that company produces horrible sims with atrocious advice. I admit i learned O8 and S8 using their sims, but the advice it gives is poor. Best bet is to you Pro Poker Tools for equity sim work and play low limit online. Tons of discussion on this approach int he stud forum.

[phydaux]

Thanks TT!

[GiantBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]

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It's boring. You can't make any hands. Just numbers. Most of what's interesting about poker is reading hands. That's the allure and much of the skill. There's probably the least hand reading in razz of any major variant.

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You have no idea how ignorant that statement is. Razz is probably one of the easiest games for hand reading, why do you think Sklansky used more razz examples than anything else in Theory of Poker?


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I was trying to figure out why you said I was being ignorant and then basically said what I was trying to say. Due to a typo and some poor wording, I obviously didn't communicate what I meant. My point was:

Hand reading is simpler in razz than many other games, and thus less interesting (to many people). No one's on a flush draw, no one looks like a low but is really going high. If you can't read hands in razz, you clearly won't do well, but just because you can read hands doesn't mean you will do well if you don't make the right play. I think the complexity of hand reading in a game like holdem is more interesting than "Did he start good? Did that card pair him?" I find stud probably the most interesting, but it's hard to find a stud game these days.

And when I say it's boring, I mean that a lot of people find it boring. A lot of NL players find limit boring, too, and vice versa. Personally, I like all the games. I think razz just appeals to a smaller audience.