Deep stack (300-1000bb+) theory--common scenarios PREFLOP

[raptor517]

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Am I correct in thinking the value for small pocket pairs goes down after a certain point (say 200-300 bb)?

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assuming the players are somewhat competent, yes.

[Perestroika]

I think your evaluation of how well you pull deep stacked river bluffs also should be considered in your preflop strategy. It is akin to Sklansky's old theory about teaching that girl who wanted to play in a tourney a simple system because he did not have time to teach her the intricacies of the game, so her only move was shove.

The less willing you are to make large bluffs due to the inflated pot size, the less likely you should be raising certain hands. The real reason for raising hands like 67s is that it increases the value of your strong hands because your range is wider. I think you can extrapolate from here.

[gergery]

I’d think. Vs. 100 BB 1) your vpip and pfr in early position goes down but in late position it goes up, and 2) the types of hands you play changes – hands that will make one pair or two pair go down in value while hands that will make sets or flushes go up in value, and 3) picking the correct opponents to play vs. goes up in value, so you want to select your seat correctly and try to isolate bad players.

-g

[duck_butter]

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Finally, if you posit that a less convergent vpip/pfr ratio is more optimal in deep-stacked play, please support this position and discuss what would be the consequences if your ratio approached closer to 1, and why this might not be optimal.

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A less convergent vpip/pfr ratio is more optimal in deep-stacked play primarily because the number of hands post flop that you are willing to stack off with (or commit large amounts with) is significantly lower than the hands you will when playing 100bb. Whereas a ratio very close to 1 may work very well in 100bb 6 max games, it is not nearly so effective in 100bb FR games very much less effective in FR deep stack.

The reason is because a competent field of players are going to quickly realize you are raising a large % of your hands and thus their bluffing and value raising frequencies post flop are going to increase. You cannot counter this by stacking off lighter like you might in a 100bb game because you are deep stacked. So you will end up bleeding off a lot of money being pushed off hands until you demonstrate you are really willing to play for your stack without the nuts.

-dB

[HustlerLA]

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One thing Id like to hear more experienced 500+BB cash players talk about is when it is important to limp raise in tougher games and whether people think this is a better play for value or more to defend your EP limps.

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In my experince the limp/raise live is a good play some games where lots of limping is going on. It serves both purposes. It protects your limps to allow you to see flops with 33, 56s, etc. and if there are a lot of people using position and attacking limpers than it can be very affective for value. In my live games, I dont limp often with big hands because, there arent enough aggressive players using position to attack limpers. Too often if I limped EP with KK or AA I would just get a 7 way limped pot OOP. Also, if you are going to limp/raise you need to do so with non premium hands as well. But once you get a caller on the rasie you will be playing a mediocre hand OOP. Thus, I only find limp/raising effective in a game where there are a lot of limpers and one or two very aggressive preflop players.

[BobboFitos]

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The reason is because a competent field of players are going to quickly realize you are raising a large % of your hands and thus their bluffing and value raising frequencies post flop are going to increase. You cannot counter this by stacking off lighter like you might in a 100bb game because you are deep stacked. So you will end up bleeding off a lot of money being pushed off hands until you demonstrate you are really willing to play for your stack without the nuts.


[/ QUOTE ]nope, this is not a fear.

[Twig & Berries]

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The reason is because a competent field of players are going to quickly realize you are raising a large % of your hands and thus their bluffing and value raising frequencies post flop are going to increase. You cannot counter this by stacking off lighter like you might in a 100bb game because you are deep stacked. So you will end up bleeding off a lot of money being pushed off hands until you demonstrate you are really willing to play for your stack without the nuts.


[/ QUOTE ]nope, this is not a fear.

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Explain please.

[rock1]

couple of points

1. The size of the raise often depends on the order of players that have limped already. Generally in these games if the first limper calls your raise, then its going to cause a chain reaction. In other words, a raise to 300 gets the same number of callers as a raise of 600 if the first limpers are the looser players. If you have a couple of the tighter players as the first limpers, a smaller raise is often enough. That to me this is independant of the hand you have...this point also makes me defend more hands from blinds as usually this triggers a string of calls behind me...

2. Obviously position is very important. However, a lot of times "position" players become very exploitable in these games. Late in a session it becomes obvious which players like raising their position - and they like a robot will try to raise from late position every orbit or every other orbit. These players become very exploitable by reraisers out of blinds or bluff limp reraisers...

3. The actual size of blind doesnt really matter anymore...a lot of 25/50 games that are playing 500+ BB deep just end up playing like 50/100 or 100/200 games...people always say "NY games are ridiculous since people raise 10 BB to open"...the reality is the game is just playing like 100/200...

4. I think for a skillful player, limping in to pots is often superior to raising pots as more mistakes are made in later streets...and you cant play later streets unless you get through the first few streets. Also, bloated preflop pots make weaker players feel more committed to hands and takes a little of the skill out of play...this is all magnified by the deeper stacks.

5. 2-barrel and 3-barrel bluffs become a lot more effective as people start getting away from bottom sets, 2 pairs, small flushes etc...i always think metagame/shania is completely overdone on 2+2, but if it matters anywhere, it matters in these deep stack games...

[jlocdog]

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Am I correct in thinking the value for small pocket pairs goes down after a certain point (say 200-300 bb)?

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assuming the players are somewhat competent, yes.

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We need to remember though, that when you get 500BB+ deep you will not often stack your opponent, but rather take chunks at a time from their stack. So PP's still hold plenty of value.

[Kirkrrr]

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The reason is because a competent field of players are going to quickly realize you are raising a large % of your hands and thus their bluffing and value raising frequencies post flop are going to increase. You cannot counter this by stacking off lighter like you might in a 100bb game because you are deep stacked. So you will end up bleeding off a lot of money being pushed off hands until you demonstrate you are really willing to play for your stack without the nuts.


[/ QUOTE ]nope, this is not a fear.

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Actually, that's a very good point and I run into this a [censored]. Other players do catch on that I'm raising and c-betting a lot, and start playing back really light and since I can never pick up a hand when they're doing it they will usually get away with it, then flash their Q-high (which was the best hand anyway) and start hi-fiving everyone at the table.

One of the reasons that it's not necessary to be as aggressive pre-flop live is that online, the players are usually too good to stack off in a limped pot without an extremely good reason, but live it's just not true - there's usually a couple of players bad enough that if you can beat their top pair you'll win a sizable pot anyway.
The reverse is also true - your pre-flop raise that in your mind will enable you to represent AA/KK later on in the hand, it simply won't work - AQ is just not folding on a Q-high flop, and you will bluff off a couple of stacks before that sinks in... thus two of the main reasons for pre-flop aggression a lot of times will not apply in a loose-passive live game.

The biggest advantage you have in a live game is that with only one table to focus on as opposed to 6 that you're used to, you should be watching every single hand that's being played out. After about an hour, every mediocre player's limping/raising range should be so narrow in your mind that playing perfectly against them becomes a cakewalk, and that's where playing live becomes hugely profitable.

Kirk