table math trouble

[n8dawg]

Not being a math wiz I have been having trouble doing the proper math while playing on-line. The game play is fast and I never was able to complete a math problem before the time ran out…

I came up with a system that I would like opinions on to see if its ok to use.

The pot odds are easy enough to figure out for me. 4,2 it is pretty simple and for the most part the outs of most situations get memorized. If your drawing you know you have a 31% to hit a strait and about %35 chance to hit a flush.

Ok so the pot is 200, now a 50% call would be 100 cut that in half again and you get your 25% call of 50 and cut that in half and you get 12.5% of 25. to me cutting things in half is easy and fast. So I need to call on a flush draw, a 50 call is 25% I would guestimate around 60-65 would be about 30-35%, So I could make a call as long as it wasn’t any hire 65.

I know that this isn’t exact math but do you think this type of thinking is ok when deciding on making a call.

[jasonfish11]

Keep a calculater next to your desk. I do taxes from home and have a 10 key on my desk makes math really quick and easy. That being said here is my real answer.

Is the pot 200 with a 60-65 bet into it that would make the pot 260 and you are now at 23%. If the pot is 140 and someone bets 60 into it you are now at 30%. The pot is 130 and a 70 bet into it now gives you 35% odds.

Here is the normal betting patterns I see at low limit.

a. Some one bets half the pot which gives you 3 to 1
b. Some one bets the pot which gives you 2 to 1
c. Complete moron bets 50 cents into a $8 pot which makes you grin a lot.
d. Guy next to moron bets $35 into an $8 pot which makes you pissed you need to fold the nfd to a complete idiot.

[hockeyav]

Quick little way to figure out percentages is to figure out how many outs you have, then multiply that number by 4 (on the flop), or 2.2 (on the turn).

Example:

There is currently 1500 in chips in the pot, you hold A5 of hearts. The flop comes 2 3 9 with the 2 and 9 both hearts. You currently have nine more hearts that will help you for a flush, and three 4s that will help you for a straight.

9+3 = 13 total outs x4 = 52%, on the turn if a blank card comes, the math is the same, except for it's 13x2.2 = 28.6.

The numbers are not exact, but close enough here for quick math.

For the pot odds, either keep a calculator open, and multiply the total pot x percentage to hit hand, and you will have the maximum amount to call which pot odds justify.

I'm not sure of any quick math shortcuts to calculate the pot odds without taking too much time or complicated math, but if you can figure out the required amount of outs, the math should only take 5-15 seconds.

(Total Outs x 4 or 2.2)/100 x Total Pot = Total amount justified by pot odds.

[n8dawg]

[ QUOTE ]
Quick little way to figure out percentages is to figure out how many outs you have, then multiply that number by 4 (on the flop), or 2.2 (on the turn).

Example:

There is currently 1500 in chips in the pot, you hold A5 of hearts. The flop comes 2 3 9 with the 2 and 9 both hearts. You currently have nine more hearts that will help you for a flush, and three 4s that will help you for a straight.

9+3 = 13 total outs x4 = 52%, on the turn if a blank card comes, the math is the same, except for it's 13x2.2 = 28.6.

The numbers are not exact, but close enough here for quick math.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not how I understood the 4,2 system. Your outs 13 x 4 = 52% to improve your hand by the river.

If i were to calculate 13 x 2.2 = 28.6% this would represent the next card be it turn or river. If i decide to play a hand with 13 outs wouldn’t I calculate the hand to the river and play accordingly?

Or are we saying the same thing?


i like the calculator idea

[jasonfish11]

n8dawg. You are correct about the 4/2 rule. If you take your outs and multiply by 4 after the flop that is your chance to imporve by the river. If you are on the turn you multiply your outs by 2 to improve on the river.

[cheburashka]

A few points to consider:

First, the 4/2 rule begins to break down after 8 outs, so that you need to subtract the number of outs over 8 from your total. For example, 13 outs yields 47%, which is 13 X 4 - (13-8).

Second, you can't really use the 4/2 exactly unless you are shoving or calling a shove. Why? Because villain will make you pay a second time to see the river card, which means that your original pot-odds calculation no longer applies.

Third, you really need to take implied odds into account. There's obviously no magic formula to tell you whether a particular villain will pay off if you hit your out, but it should be an extremely important part of your calculation (this is why Brunson prefers straights to flushes--they're harder to read and therefore pay off more often).

[Rookcifer]

The 2/4 rule holds up for me quite well, especially since I rarely find myself drawing to more than 10 outs anyway. If I am ever drawing to more than 10 outs, I simply do not find it that important to reduce the win percentage by a few the points in order to improve accuracy, since the pot will usually justify a call with more than 10 outs anyway. It's only when I have less than 8 outs that I worry about being perfectly precise.

Typically when I am on a draw, I am in a situation where I have an open ended straight draw or a flush draw. One will have 8 outs and the other usually has 9. As to whether to call a bet post flop, based on pot odds, that will depend on the villain and on the position I am in. If I am in early or first position, I will often open bet (semi-bluff) into the pot in order to drive out other players and to hopefully take the pot down. If I am in last position, I will often perform the free card raise (so I get to see river card for free). If I am called or reraised then I will look at pot odds. For example, if the pot has 1500 in it and it is 400 to call, I merely divide and realize I have roughly 3.5:1, or roughly 30%. If my draw has a percentage of hitting greater than 30% then I call. If not, I fold (this is not counting my read on my opponent as to what I think he might have, so I may call when pot odds don't justify if I know he is an habitual raiser or bluffer). An open ended straight has a 30% chance of hitting on either the turn or river (31.5% to be exact), so a call will be close but probably justified in the example above. If the card doesn't hit on the turn, then you will have to reevaluate and decide if it is worth calling another bet in order to see the river. An open ended straight has a 17.4% chance of hitting on the river.

Implied odds are far too complex to calculate when playing No Limit, in my opinion, since the whole concept of implied odds was created in reference to limit (it was introduced in "Hold 'Em Poker" by Sklansky which is a Limit book). In limit you know villian can only make one Big Bet (and then a limited raise), so you can easily surmise the number of Big Bets and adjust your pot odds accordingly. In No Limit, it ain't quite that simple since his bet could be from the size of the Big Blind all the way up to his whole stack. I personally never calculate implied odds in NLHE, so maybe I am missing out. I am a new player, so I would be interested in a simplified way of calculating implied odds. However, I am skeptical of any sure fire method, since the betting in the game is too unpredictable by its very nature, especially when playing against unknown players.

[crashzzz]

be careful when counting outs... (don't double count your 4h)

9+3 != 13 outs

[metsandfinsfan]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not how I understood the 4,2 system. Your outs 13 x 4 = 52% to improve your hand by the river.

If i were to calculate 13 x 2.2 = 28.6% this would represent the next card be it turn or river. If i decide to play a hand with 13 outs wouldn’t I calculate the hand to the river and play accordingly?

Or are we saying the same thing?


i like the calculator idea

[/ QUOTE ]


the only way you can use the 4 rule is if you are going all in on the flop. Otherwise you probably are going to be faced with a turn bet that you are not getting odds to call if you missed on the flop

[n8dawg]

ok i think this thread is getting outta hand on the 4,2 rule. and pretty dam confusing.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not how I understood the 4,2 system. Your outs 13 x 4 = 52% to improve your hand by the river.

If i were to calculate 13 x 2.2 = 28.6% this would represent the next card be it turn or river. If i decide to play a hand with 13 outs wouldn’t I calculate the hand to the river and play accordingly?

Or are we saying the same thing?


i like the calculator idea

[/ QUOTE ]


the only way you can use the 4 rule is if you are going all in on the flop. Otherwise you probably are going to be faced with a turn bet that you are not getting odds to call if you missed on the flop

[/ QUOTE ] hu? this doesnt make sense to me. i use the rule of 4 to go all in? why the hell would i do that? maybe to give the villian an incorrect play but still. wtf?

anyhow can someone respond to the OP and not the 4,2 rule.