Everything we've always wanted to ask about NL thread...

[4_2_it]

wookie,

The extreme upper range of players are at 7+. I haven't seen a 300k hand graph of anything over 7. Mine is on 2 databases, but is between 3 and 4 PTBB/100 over 350k hands of NL$100/NL$200. I think as I improve, having a 5PTBB/100 winrate with the unmentionable would put me in the top 10% of NL$100 players.

I have had 30k stretches over 10PTBB followed by 50k break even stretches. A heater can mean a quick 10 buy-in upswing. Of course, I have had two 10+ buy-in downswings as well. The long run is much longer than a lot of people want to believe. I focus on decision-making. As long as I am making correct decisions, the results will take care of themselves.

[MrWookie]

Well, thanks for the input. I'm surprised, but I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised that the supposed land of milk and honey isn't quite as good as it's cracked up to be. Naturally, as I'm getting into NL here, I'll be happy w/ PTBB/100 > 0. However, I'd hoped that the ratio of win rate to variance would be a little higher compared to limit than it seems to be. 42, are you running around 40 PTBB for your SD/100?

[phydaux]

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phydaux, in another thread you mention the "rule of 5 & 10." I always muck that (even suited), but I doubt that's what you were talking about. Could you expound here about that?

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Spot on. Also keep in mind that effective stacks need to be at least 80bb or else the implied odds will be too low.

IIRC it's something that's mentioned in Ciaffone and Reuben where if you're considering calling a preflop raise in position with a speculative hand (i.e. pp's, sc's), you've got an easy call if it's for less than 5% of your stack and an easy fold if it's for more than 10%. Anything in between you need to use judgment.

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[Bilgefisher]

I like the idea of this thread. I have many noob questions.

When on draws do you look at pot odds and count outs the same way?

I read in this thread that there are perhaps less decisions to make in a hand, could you elaborate please?

[KurtSF]

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When on draws do you look at pot odds and count outs the same way?

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Yes!

Many NL players will insist it is a "feel" game, you "play the player" and there is no need for all the maths you use in limit. Trust me, the skills you have honed counting outs and instantly sizing up pot odds will put you at an advantage to your usual table of NL players.

Now, that said, Pot Odds are much less important, and Fold Equity and Implied Odds are soooooooooo much bigger that they will factor into every decision not. But the ability to find back-door draws and counterfeit outs can turn a obvious fold into an obvious shove.

Its the same skills, you just have to learn new ways to use them.

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I read in this thread that there are perhaps less decisions to make in a hand, could you elaborate please?

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An example: You see a flop 4 ways and hit it big, middle pair and a flush draw.

Limit thinking: Do I have pot odds to call a bet? Do I have odds to call two? Do I have enough equity to raise this? Who is in front of me and who is behind, and do I want to c/r to face some people with 2 cold or should i b3b to build the pot? So you will have 2, 3, or 4 decision to make on this street alone.

NL thinking: Oooh, nice! Raise! Repeat if necessary.

I over-simplify the matter, but that is the kind of thing I am talking about.

[phydaux]

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When on draws do you look at pot odds and count outs the same way?

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Yes for the most part, but you have to keep two things in mind:

1) Often you won't have correct pot odds to call, but if the stacks are big enough and you belive your opponent will pay you off if you hit, then the implied odds sometimes make it correct to call. Usually, though, all but the fishyest players shut down when cards that complete a draw come. So draws, particularly flush draws, often don't have any implied odds.

2) Any aggressive opponent will likely bet enough on the flop & turn to make it unprofitable to call with just a draw. This is one of the reasons it sucks so much to be OOP with a draw in NL. There's no way to check behind and get a free card. And if you do have position and check behind on the flop, odds are your opponent will sense weakness and bet the turn. You'll have no way to know if it's a bluff or if he has a real hand.

And mistakes after the flop in NL can be very costly.

[Russ M.]

Ok here's my question for NL experts.

I live in Florida and they have recently passed laws allowing NL100 (2/2 blinds) and LHE up to $5 per street. So far I've played 5 NL sessions totalling 28 hours and I am down $220 (I'm up $320 in two $5 LHE sessions of 7 hours total). I feel more comfortable at limit, as many people do, but I cannot stand to be a NL loser thus far against players I know for a fact are retards.

What strategies are best for games like this? Some things to consider:
- you are sitting with 50BB
- its live
- preflop raises are typically to $12-15, however there are plenty of instances where openers go to $25 and even all-in blind
- somewhere around 30-40 hands/hr at best

[Grunch]

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NL thinking: Oooh, nice! Raise! Repeat if necessary.

I over-simplify the matter, but that is the kind of thing I am talking about.

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You do over-simplify the matter. The players with this thought process are the ones that go broke the quickest. It's not even in the same zip code as correct no-limit thinking.

[phydaux]

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What strategies are best for games like this? Some things to consider:
- you are sitting with 50BB

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That's all anyone needs to know. You're playing short stack NL. That means you aren't playing poker. You're playing "Shove."

Grab your copy of Getting Started in Hold'em and review the Short Stack Strategy. You wait for big pairs or big broadway cards (AJ+, KJ+), make/call a big pre-flop bet, and then shove the flop no matter what cards come.

Doesn't sound like much fun, does it? Well, it's not. It isn't even really poker. But it is a +EV strategy for those game conditions.

[MrWookie]

Well, 50 BB can give you a little more play than GSIH would suggest. GSIH uses 20 BB stacks, no? Still with $15 raises being normal preflop, the game plays much shallower than 50 BB normally plays online. Under those conditions, you really are looking at a shortstacking strategy until you double up once or twice and your opponents do too.