10/20NL hand vs hotmark777

[fnord_too]

Did we ever establish an profile for hotmark?

Yes, I think the flop is critical. I think how you play the flop depends greatly on villain. If villain is tricky, I think checking behind on the flop is the play, since you really won't know how to respond to a check raise, and villain flat calling isn't too nice either. Basicly, I would want to keep the pot small against a tricky foe. Against an honest villain, you know how to respond to his action and either betting or checking could be right depending on their exact nature.

Against an unknown, I likely just check behind here since I don't really want to put a lot of money in with what I have, and I hate getting blown off a hand with such potential.

[edge]

Oh weird. This flop is exactly the type where a tricky player will take it away from the preflop raiser. I'd say I pull a move on this flop more than half the time, and a lot of other players will do the same, so I see the flop checkraise as meaning close to nothing. Is it the size of the checkraise that's scaring everyone off? Is it a specific read on the player?

[ZeeJustin]

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Did we ever establish an profile for hotmark?

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He's 25/7. He's one of the biggest winners in the game, and is pretty tricky. He's capable of big multi-street bluffs, and big calls.

[ZeeJustin]

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Did we ever establish an profile for hotmark?

Yes, I think the flop is critical. I think how you play the flop depends greatly on villain. If villain is tricky, I think checking behind on the flop is the play, since you really won't know how to respond to a check raise, and villain flat calling isn't too nice either. Basicly, I would want to keep the pot small against a tricky foe. Against an honest villain, you know how to respond to his action and either betting or checking could be right depending on their exact nature.

Against an unknown, I likely just check behind here since I don't really want to put a lot of money in with what I have, and I hate getting blown off a hand with such potential.

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Very interesting outlook on the hand, and this explains the disagreements.

If vilain is tricky, I misplayed the flop. If villain is a solid rock, I misplayed the turn and river.

[durrrr]

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I think the hand discussion is pretty much over. How about results...

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I think there's still some discussion going. The only thing people seem to agree on is that I played the hand terribly on at least one street.

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i'd disagree, and i dont like the way you played the hand, but it not @ all terrible imo. This isnt just to be nice either; rather i think tht you played it how many would; however there are a few far better lines. Similarly if you raise KK, and a rock reraises OOP (who only reraises KK/AA OOP); pushing is definitely not optimal; however many people do it; and its understandable.

Kind of a useless post... sry [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[RED FACE]

Yeah but once you get cr'ed why not 3bet to ~900 and fold to a push.

This may get tp to fold and overpairs may fold also or call and check turn to you. It may also get sets and nut flush draws to push.

You were getting 3:1 on your non nut flush draw on the flop so I guess it was pretty tempting to just call.

[JMP300z]

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Yeah but once you get cr'ed why not 3bet to ~900 and fold to a push.

This may get tp to fold and overpairs may fold also or call and check turn to you. It may also get sets and nut flush draws to push.

You were getting 3:1 on your non nut flush draw on the flop so I guess it was pretty tempting to just call.

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because this is a serious spew.

-JP

[Leptyne]

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It seems like the key to this hand is on the flop. Would most people agree with that?

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I agree. This seems to be a math problem. Hero has a decent hand and makes a standard CB. Villain can easily calculate the probality of Hero holding the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and calculate the probability of success of a bluff, probably requiring two barrells, plus his hand range includes a set or the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. So his check raise is perfectly normal. Hero makes the same calculations and knows that he is behind a set, Villain has the same probability of having the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], plus he can factor in the known capability of Villain firing a two barrell bluff and can assign a range of probability. So the smooth call looks fine. See the turn. When the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits the turn Villain can no longer represent the set. He's stuck with repping the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and Hero already ran the numbers on the flop. When you take sets out of the hand range, which seems reasonable, then what is the probablility Villain has the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? Villain is stuck with firing the second barrell, so does he have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a bluff? I think the paired board is not a factor. It just appears that both are crunching numbers and Hero is putting Villain on a probable bluff. When the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits the turn I think both have calculated the other doesn't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero has encouraged the bluff. Hero may be wrong, but that's my take on the thinking process.

[QueenFortune]

Im not playing this high anymore. But i liked how you played it. every street. I might be mad but my read(only 4k hands though) of villian is that he was either on horrendous tilt(maybe very likely?) or he aint that good. I have a few hands with him where he is just pushing around.

[ZeeJustin]

Mark had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which is the worst possible hand I could have been up against (other than AAdx)