Is there an ultimate bully stack?

[GeeBeeQED]

How big a stack multiple over the other players on a full table do you have to have before:

1.Moving all in every hand is +EV?

Or

2.Moving all in every pair or J-10/better is +EV?

What I'm pondering is if your in a situation with 20x the next largest stack can you move all in with impunity because nobody can expect to beat you enough times in a row to take you down. Or is there are hand standard you would need to apply. Is there any multiple where this becomes an arguable strategy.

What multiple do you need to play like this in a head up situation?

[Gonso]

GeeBee,

It doesn't really work that way, for a number of reasons. The size of your stack isn't really an issue, it's the size of effective stacks. If you have 10,000 chips and your opponent has 1,000, you're only playing for 1,000 chips. That's all you and your opponent need to be concerned about for that particular hand (besides the blinds).

Now, if you have many, many times their stack, yes, you'll probably win if you pushed every hand, but it's still a poor strategy because it's so easy to exploit. In fact it's kind of lazy way to do things. What you're doing is basically given them the best chance to win.

It's hard to see that when you're sitting on a huge stack, I know. A lot of people get carried away thinking they're invulnerable when they've got a mountain of chips in front of them, but you still have to try to induce mistakes from your opponents while avoiding them yourself.

Extreme example: Let's say you had 40 million chips and one opponent had only 500,000 with tiny 100/200 blinds. If you shoved every hand, he could wait and only call you with his very best hands. He'd need to double up around 7 times to take the lead, which is hard to do, but you give him a VASTLY better chance of doing so. Other than folding evey hand to him, this strategy gives him the best chance to come back, which would be a nightmare for you.

Also, let's say he only calls with QQ+ and actually doubles up 6 times in a row, and now has 16 million chips while you have 24.5 million. Are you going to continue shoving because your original idea was to keep doing it because he'll "probably break" before 7 tries? The cards don't know that this guy won the last 6 hands. It's a whole new problem now.

Now, when effective stacks are extremely SMALL relative to blinds, that's another story. If the blinds are 100/200, and he only has 1,200 chips, each of you can be correct pushing and calling with a lot of hands.

With a big stack, you should be looking to grind your opponents down, which a big stack helps you do. That last thing on you want is to make it easy for them all to dkeep doubling up through you.

[Gonso]

You might be interested in reading up on jam/fold strategy or the SAGE system also. There's a decent amount of stuff out there on non-exploitable heads up play shortstacked.

I don't know what you've read either, but there are a good number of books that will help out a lot and kind of clear this up for you a little too. Harringtons, NLHETAP, PNL, ToP, and the jam/fold tables in Mathematics of Poker.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

What I'm pondering is if your in a situation with 20x the next largest stack can you move all in with impunity because nobody can expect to beat you enough times in a row to take you down.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a common misconception. It is wrong by a lot. It is similar to playing a martingale, a well-known worthless betting system.

No sum of negative numbers is positive. No combination of -EV pushes is +EV.

It might be that your opponents would have the bankroll to take the first 60-40 situation, but not after doubling up a few times. That doesn't mean it would be good for you. It would be a lose-lose situation. Further, your opponents can quit whenever they feel like it. Even if you can't quite believe you might lose 4 times in a row, you can lose a huge amount without getting stacked.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

I'm unsure if your refering to a cash game or a tournament. If its a cash game, you have a serious misunderstanding that will decimate your bankroll pretty quickly. Other players will simply call you when they feel they have the best of it, and will fold otherwise. You will pick up some blinds and ultimately hand them over to whomever may have AA KK QQ AKs down the road. Of course, I am assuming that the players around you would adjust to such an obvious strategy. And an astute player in the BB would move all in with an astonishing range if it were folded around to him. You need to read Ed Miller's Getting Started in Hold Em, especially the chapters on stacksize and playing a shortstack.

If you are referring to tournament play, Harrington's Books are the answer. Pushing/ not pushing is far more complicated that just the % of chips that you hold but my memory is that he has a pretty complete discussion of the "End Game." I don't play tournaments much anymore.

[GeeBeeQED]

You all missunderstand my query. I certainly am not proposing such a strategy. I was curious if anybody would theorize and answer and how they would explain it. I have a 70+ book library and my copies of Harringtons set is quite dog eared from multiple readings.

Generally I see many people trying to come up with all-in strategy's and I find those players typically weak. Always searching for a way to avoid learning to play after the flop. I don't like slider strategy's. However, being objective, I was curious if such a situation could represent and exception where my anti-slider views are in error.

I've faced players that seemed to employ the above strategy to one degree or another.

My question still stands.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
You all missunderstand my query. I certainly am not proposing such a strategy. I was curious if anybody would theorize and answer and how they would explain it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you mean you want to see someone's justification for this obviously terrible play?

[El_Hombre_Grande]

You said you wanted to know at which stack size multiple over the other players it would become + EV to move all in everytime. The answer in a cash game is most certainly "never, there is no such relationship, it is gibberish."

For tournament play, it is slightly more complicated but it really relates primarily to the ratios of stacks to blinds and antes. and furthermore, you may have to move in with almost any two becasue of the shortness of your stack. But if your copies of Harrington are "dog eared" there really isn't much I can help you with other than to say the question seems odd for someone who understands Harrington.

[GeeBeeQED]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean you want to see someone's justification for this obviously terrible play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll accept your answer as "no".

[GeeBeeQED]

Hombre, thank you for offering some constructive conversation on this subject.

I have learned and in practice play differently with larger stacks relative to my competition. I'm just curious to see others thoughts on these issues. Maybe my original post seems over broad.

For example, in a single table SNG, if i'm on the end with 2 villians and I've got them outstacked by a large margin (5x thier chips or so), I raise preflop even more liberally than when I'm equal stacked. With blinds are 100-200 or 200-400 I'm probably raising preflop with every naked ace, naked king, q-8 or better, suited connectors, everytime on the button. I usually raise 4xbb here. If they reraise I call almost everytime. This has been very effective for me. Obviously I lose most of these showdowns but I've got so many chips they still won't have me equaled. I'm able to grind them back to the same spot again most of the time. The same strategy does not seem to work with the chips stack are even. I'm a little tighter, my preflop raising and reraising hands a re a bit stronger. There is no question to me this is a part of proper short handed strategy. I'm curious if others have seen other situations or conditions where such hand sellection adjustments relative to player to player stack ratios is justified. I realize I didn't specify short handed play in my first question. That answer is obvious to me. My question is broader seeking opinions about other game situations.

Dave